[6.0 - 6.4 Spoilers] An interesting video detailing Venat's polarizing reception

[Iscah]

I mean, yea some people bring it up just for validation, but other people who talk about it in the thread may just be interested in discussing it or god forbid, they are new players who just finished the 6.0 MSQ.

Theoretically yes. And we do have one new person who has come in to discuss, which is a rare sight.

For the most part it is the same group of people having the same argument they've been having across multiple threads for a year and a half, with nothing new to add on either side.

[MikkoAkure]

That's still part of the ancients story so seems odd to discount it. Also wasn't part of the problem with the ancients that they were 'too perfect' but they seem to be depicting them as very humanly flawed as where did you get might makes right in ancient society?

It has naught to do with the whole Ancient story in the MSQ and the morality around the Sundering that is being discussed ad nauseam. It's an Ancient story, not the Ancient story. It's like bringing up the dietary habits of the Redbelly bandits when discussing whether or not is was OK for the Hyur and the Elezen to join the Elementals and leave Gelmorra. There was never a problem with them being "too perfect", not sure where that comes from.

And as for my comment on "might makes right", it was mentioned in an interview that Hermes (I thought it was Venat, but she does the same exact thing) and Emet-Selch make objective judgements against an entire people and have the power to make it happen whether the people want it or not. All 3 wield comparatively unstoppable power to have their will made manifest against an entire people whether that be out-of-context magic the Ancients have no defense against - Hermes, being a near-literal god with the power to split souls, the very world, and another near-literal god into 14 pieces - Venat/Hydaelyn, or being an omnipotent ghost who kills millions upon millions of people and shatters whole worlds to bring back the people who were sacrificed - Emet-Selch.

I just don't get why you decide to ''time gate'' thing about Venat. Should we spam people who talking in the Miqo'te naming convention to stop talking about the subject cause most information about the subject date from 1.0 and 2.0?

It's one thing to discuss new, fresh topics on decade-old lore like again, the dietary habits of the Redbelly bandits. But it's another to constantly bring up a dead horse topic that's been gone over repeatedly again and again with no end in sight and no new information at all provided in a year and a half and call it "relevant" just because the climax happened in the same expansion we're currently in despite the story having long moved on. None of the arguments change, there's no new critical insight, and no one is convinced of anything at all and just digs harder.

It may become relevant again in December when we have a new lore book, but so far every single time a new tidbit is added it always shines a light on Venat and doesn't make anyone from the "pro-Zodiark camp" happy anyway.

[Cilia]

I just don't get why you decide to ''time gate'' thing about Venat. Should we spam people who talking in the Miqo'te naming convention to stop talking about the subject cause most information about the subject date from 1.0 and 2.0?

I'm not trying to or even suggesting anything be time gated. New faces with new ideas are always welcome, as are questions about older lore bits.

That's not what happened here, though. What happened here is someone posted a negatively critical YouTube video, positive critics argued against it, and negative critics came out of the woodwork to argue against them and have their negative opinions of the Endwalker story validated, leading to an echo chamber and personal attacks. The issue is interminably contentious, and when the same familiar faces show out and make the same familiar moves...

There's a reason I call it dancing.

[KizuyaKatogami]

So it's probably best that the side that keeps dragging this years discussion up to do this same merry go round should stop right? Since they can't seem to take critiques of their points and there is no swaying them and it just descends into to this circle jerk.
The only thing I'd disagree on with Cilia is that yes, people can be wrong and it's okay to say that regardless of weather or not they want to change their stance. Given the matter at hand it's perfectly fine to not like Venat or not think the reasons given in the story are good enough. All well in good. You can't just dismiss that though. To do so is to be incorrect.

Proving my point here yet again. Correct me if i’m wrong, we’re still in Endwalker? It’s genuinely baffling to me you say something of “stop talking about the expansions story and the characters involved” when we’re literally still in that very expansion and said expansions story was the tie up of a 10 year long story arc. Also again, denouncing this thread as nothing more than a “circlejerk.” You come into this thread about Venat, complain about it being about Venat, question people on why they’re still talking about Venat. You don’t have to click the thread. At this point like i said before it seems like you’re truly addicted to this. Trying to disprove “wrongthink” and silence anyone who speaks out, the very thing i’ve stated is part of the reason the videos were made in the first place. Basically “stop talking about lore in the lore forum.”

As far as escalating others goes, it is not my responsibility to mince words. I assume the people here are adults. I am not going to treat them like children when they should be able to act like adults. It’s odd to me how you all keep saying to “move on” yet who keeps coming into these threads knowing what it’s about and trying to denounce it?

[thegreatonemal]

Proving my point here yet again. Correct me if i’m wrong, we’re still in Endwalker? It’s genuinely baffling to me you say something of “stop talking about the expansions story and the characters involved” when we’re literally still in that very expansion and said expansions story was the tie up of a 10 year long story arc. Also again, denouncing this thread as nothing more than a “circlejerk.” You come into this thread about Venat, complain about it being about Venat, question people on why they’re still talking about Venat. You don’t have to click the thread. At this point like i said before it seems like you’re truly addicted to this. Trying to disprove “wrongthink” and silence anyone who speaks out, the very thing i’ve stated is part of the reason the videos were made in the first place. Basically “stop talking about lore in the lore forum.”

As far as escalating others goes, it is not my responsibility to mince words. I assume the people here are adults. I am not going to treat them like children when they should be able to act like adults. It’s odd to me how you all keep saying to “move on” yet who keeps coming into these threads knowing what it’s about and trying to denounce it?

You don't have a point, that's the general core of all this, well that and not knowing what an opinion is. The topic has remained the same since the release of endwalker and what little additional information has come out continues to disprove the stuff you guys say, when this is brought up in discussions you lot get pretty to people. Not only that you don't tend to keep it to threads about this particular topic. A final point is you're adding nothing new to the talks, at this point you may as well just copy past post from other threads. Calling me addicted is hilarious though, you have been at this for years and this conversation extends back to Shadowbringers.

You don't have to mince words but you also complain that others are mean to you. When you and your are the ones that started that because people disagreed with your assessment of the story we all saw. So you've got a choice, either be more respectful to people or at the very least drop the topic until some information that comes out that supports your view, since you clearly can't handle dissent without crying harassment, like a child. You seem to mistake what is being denounced. The video has the tone of someone who's mad that people don't agree with their view of the story and comes across like that. But I guess since critical analysis is in the title so that must make it legitimate, right?

[MikkoAkure]

Correct me if i’m wrong, we’re still in Endwalker? It’s genuinely baffling to me you say something of “stop talking about the expansions story and the characters involved” when we’re literally still in that very expansion and said expansions story was the tie up of a 10 year long story arc.

Venat's story ended over a year and a half ago in 6.0 and there's not really been anything new to talk about that since then in regards to her or the Ancient storyline. The same arguments have been made over and over and there's nothing new at all to be said.

It's one thing to "talk about lore in the lore forum" but it's another for everyone to just keep repeating themselves whenever a trigger phrase is said in an unrelated thread or to make a new one to say the same thing again and again. Endwalker and the game as a whole have moved on passed all of Ancients into a mostly new and unrelated story from 6.1 onward. There will probably be new information released in the next Encyclopedia Eorzea in December, but if it's anything like the Tales from the Dawn, it's not going to make you happy anyway.

[jameseoakes]

Venat's story ended over a year and a half ago in 6.0 and there's not really been anything new to talk about that since then in regards to her or the Ancient storyline. The same arguments have been made over and over and there's nothing new at all to be said.

It's one thing to "talk about lore in the lore forum" but it's another for everyone to just keep repeating themselves whenever a trigger phrase is said in an unrelated thread or to make a new one to say the same thing again and again. Endwalker and the game as a whole have moved on passed all of Ancients into a mostly new and unrelated story from 6.1 onward. There will probably be new information released in the next Encyclopedia Eorzea in December, but if it's anything like the Tales from the Dawn, it's not going to make you happy anyway.

Well we only just finished Pandamuim so we've only just finished with ancients and the bits of content we've had with them don't seem to have gelled all that well with the narrative the MSQ tried to poorly tell.
I don't think it helps that after gutting the games deep lore the game seems to have no interest in building something new, the post 6.0 MSQ seems to have very little to other than forcing a load of badly done FF4 references with let to no setup

[MikkoAkure]

Well we only just finished Pandamuim so we've only just finished with ancients and the bits of content we've had with them don't seem to have gelled all that well with the narrative the MSQ tried to poorly tell.

I don't count Pandaemonium because it doesn't link into the main Ancient storyline in the MSQ and has nothing at all to do with the characters that everyone argues about. It's not the main Ancient storyline, it's a tangent that doesn't even really tell us much we didn't know lore-wise beyond character growth and set dressing isolated to just the raid. Because we have access to a zone with living Ancients in it, it's an excuse to go back and give us further insight into Lahabrea, who otherwise has been dead for 8 years. And I guess to have Elidibus with his mask off. Of all the 8-man raids, it probably has the least relevancy in the actual main plot after Alexander.

It doesn't add any relevant information to people for or against Venat or her role in the story except that it triple-downs on Ancients being flawed, just like Sundered people. And just like the Greek gods many of them are named after, many of them are extremely prideful and sure of their own authority to make drastic changes to the world and its people as well as that might makes right, which is something the writers have already told us about both Emet-Selch and Venat.

[jameseoakes]

I don't count Pandaemonium because it doesn't link into the main Ancient storyline in the MSQ and has nothing at all to do with the characters that everyone argues about. It's not the main Ancient storyline, it's a tangent that doesn't even really tell us much we didn't know lore-wise beyond character growth and set dressing isolated to just the raid. Because we have access to a zone with living Ancients in it, it's an excuse to go back and give us further insight into Lahabrea, who otherwise has been dead for 8 years. And I guess to have Elidibus with his mask off. Of all the 8-man raids, it probably has the least relevancy in the actual main plot after Alexander.

It doesn't add any relevant information to people for or against Venat or her role in the story except that it triple-downs on Ancients being flawed, just like Sundered people. And just like the Greek gods many of them are named after, many of them are extremely prideful and sure of their own authority to make drastic changes to the world and its people as well as that might makes right, which is something the writers have already told us about both Emet-Selch and Venat.

That's still part of the ancients story so seems odd to discount it. Also wasn't part of the problem with the ancients that they were 'too perfect' but they seem to be depicting them as very humanly flawed as where did you get might makes right in ancient society?

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Clearly there is a point here, because you and many others haven’t been able to disprove it. When provided evidence that refute *your* claims, you whine that it doesn’t count or you don’t want to watch the videos. And yes, you are addicted. You come into a thread clearly meant for a discussion about Venat just to complain about people talking about her. Also you tried to claim before i’ve been constantly here posting about Venat yet i’ve literally been unsubbed for a year and a half almost 2 years. You’re delusional and it’s genuinely kind of creepy that you seem to see me everywhere, might want to get that looked at.

As for “others being mean to me.” I’m not talking about petty insults or squabbles. I’m talking about obsessive Venat fans going so far out of their way as to threaten sexual harassment, go forward with doxxing peoples personal lives, and much more. Name a time we’ve done anything of the sort i’ll wait. As for your choices, what if i don’t adhere to them? Who decided to make you the lore authoritarian? You literally don’t even know common lore stated in game factually proven.

Lastly about the tone, seeing as you’re the only person to even comment on that i’m going to assume that’s purely bias talking, especially because upon hearing the video, the creator seemed to maintain a neutral vocal stance and merely brought up in game evidence to support their claims. It seems like at this point you’re grasping for straws. I would suggest you quit the flailing, take a break from lore or the forums in general and realize how delusional you sound here. Especially when you try to claim i sound like a child when in reality you and many others dissent comes from “DONT TALK BAD ABOUT MOMMY D:” Get real.