Enmity Management, Do we want it back?

[Payadopa]

Rather than enmity, tank position play a more vital role, now every major mechanic is designed with boss teleporting to center with a giant hitbox that all tank responsibility was taken alway....now...while it would be nice to have tank more control of boss I think it would be detrimental for PUG groups, I cam already see p12s p1 sh*&ting on all bad tanks if boss didn't teleport to center for mechanics.

Because some people are bad =/= valid argument. If I die at a boss I don't turn around and say let's delete bosses. It's about bringing engagement back to a video game that is supposed to be played.

[DRKoftheAzure]

So this thread got completely off topic due to what I assume is people starting a fight for no reason, and never actually giving a detailed opinion on why they don't want enmity management to come back/be meaningful, and then decided to throw in gearing up problems because they play tank to gear up their DPS/Healer which raises the question; Why aren't you gearing up tank first if you're playing tank...? It makes no sense to NOT gear up your tank first if you're playing tank...

I gave a detailed explanation of not only why I want it to come back and gave detailed explanation of how enmity combos can co-exist with the current tank stance system, but also made sure to that enmity combos were going to be hypothetically DPS neutral in case enmity combos did come back because there is no other way to balance enmity combos in both single target and AoE other than outright remove them...

And then someone commented on how Yoshi-P wanted to a avoid a toxic environment, and that toxic environment already happened REGARDLESS if Yoshi-P and team removed enmity management or not, ASSUMING this information is true, a damned if you/damned if you don't scenario, because the exact same people who don't want enmity management to come back are probably the same people who wanted it gone in the first place and don't want to have the entertain the possibility of why people want this to come back or even entertain the idea of enmity management coming back in a meaningful way, all because they didn't want to be responsible for for their own bad behavior...

It would also help if the devs balanced bosses properly instead of being "do this thing right or you/the whole party dies and you have to start over from the beginning" for their boss fight designs... players are gonna get hit one way or another, this is a fact, sometimes it's a skill issue, sometimes it's just someone having a bad day and need to have some fun to try and make the day better but it doesn't always go according to plan...

[Hammerhorn]

Holding threat doesn't create better gameplay somehow, currently I like how in Raids you can pass the threat around with your co tank its like a "high Five Bro" moment. I've been a tank in various games for around 20 yrs I enjoy FF14s take on threat.

[Mikey_R]

So this thread got completely off topic due to what I assume is people starting a fight for no reason, and never actually giving a detailed opinion on why they don't want enmity management to come back/be meaningful, and then decided to throw in gearing up problems because they play tank to gear up their DPS/Healer which raises the question; Why aren't you gearing up tank first if you're playing tank...? It makes no sense to NOT gear up your tank first if you're playing tank...

I mean, talking about gear and how that will affect the tanks ability to hold enmity is crucial when deciding if the system should be worth coming back, but only AFTER a baseline of an enmity system has been established.

I gave a detailed explanation of not only why I want it to come back and gave detailed explanation of how enmity combos can co-exist with the current tank stance system, but also made sure to that enmity combos were going to be hypothetically DPS neutral in case enmity combos did come back because there is no other way to balance enmity combos in both single target and AoE other than outright remove them...

If you have 2 combos, one that is just made for damage and the other that builds enmity, but they are DPS neutral with each other, what is the point of the damage combo if the enmity combo does that, and more, which is something I addressed in post #10.

I want enmity management to come back, but at this point I think Dark Knight and Warrior should be the only tanks with enmity combos, even if it is just lip service and the enmity combos are DPS neutral.

Reasoning for this?

Gunbreaker was clearly not designed with enmity combos and I'm okay with at least 2 tanks not having enmity combos, but I'm also okay with enmity toggles existing for all tanks so long as tanks that are the main tank know how to use Shirk on the off tank in case main tank dies... and therein lies the problem, most tanks don't know how to do that, and instead wait for the off tank to turn on tank stance once the main tank has established enough aggro, which usually means A.) never, B.) until the main tank dies, and by that point all the raisers are dead or C.) both...

This took a little while to parse in my head, but to lay it out clearer, you want all tanks to have an enmity toggle (what is what we have now), however, you also want to give DRK/WAR an enmity combo that is DPS neutral with their damage combo, making the damage combo redundant, but you also want them both to be responsible for keeping the off tank second in enmity, despite the fact they have enmity toggles to keep their enmity high. Does that sound about right?

And it's clear that most players don't know how to use Shirk as main tank when in a group with a second tank, and off tanks are afraid of hitting provoke without tank stance out of fear for either A.) cleaving someone(usually an off tank positioning problem but still) or B.)the healers or DPS yell at them for using Provoke(again, usually an off tank positioning problem) and with close friends this not too much of an issue since they're just messing around having fun, but anything outside of that is a recipe for disaster...

In the current climate, all it takes is the off tank to turn on tank stance after the main tank has established an enmity lead.

Dark Knight and Warrior can still have Provoke for forced tank swaps, Shirk for enmity dump while main tanking in case off tank doesn't have enmity combo AND forced tank swaps, and tank stance for just main tanking, while having enmity combos that are DPS neutral for off tanking...

So, what happens when you have both a PLD/GNB? or are you forcing a paradigm where the group will have WAR/DRK and PLD/GNB?

Sorry, you claimed that this is a 'detailed explanation', but it is far from it. You firstly haven't provided a clear explanation as to what your goal is for each tank, I had to read between the lines to get out what I did. You also haven't said why you want to limit Provoke and Shirk to only DRK/WAR and why only they get enmity combos. From there, how does the enmity combo behave with the enmity toggle? Can they hold enmity without it? Do they still need it? I already addressed what the point of the 2 combos are if they are the same, but nothing here seems to make sense.

As for PLD/GNB, why do they NOT get enmity combos in your theoretical example? Why do they not get enmity manipulation in Provoke and Shirk? Is their only way to control enmity via the enmity toggle?

Speaking of enmity toggle, that is exactly what we have now. Does your proposed idea change it in any way (except for maybe a reduced multiplier on the enmity)? If not, does it then not seem redundant having both enmity control via combos AND the toggle?

Again, I fail to see how this was a 'detailed explanation' when there are so many basic holes that need to be filled. It just seems like you want to take current enmity and change it up for no reason, whilst ignoring the reason why people want the old enmity system back in the first place.

[Dzian]

The problem is if you envison the combat system as a lovely bowl of delicious stew. then what the devs have basically done over the years is take all the ingrediants out.

emnity may have been the potatoes,
TP the carrots,
MP the leaks,
Debuffs, the beans,
old ast cards the lentils,
cleric stance the onion.
etc etc. All added together made a fairly nice tasty stew.

what the combat sytem has become in recent XIV is nothing more than a bowl of water.. and if all they did was add emnity back then it becomes just a rather boring bowl of boiled potatoes and still lacking all the other ingrediants that made it tasty and flavoursome.

any one ingrediant on its own doesnt make or break a combat system it's how they all work together. and you can't make a delicous bowl of stew without a delicious mix of ingrediants.

[DRKoftheAzure]

snip

I play on the Crystal Data Center and... let's just say that the players there are "special" and that's the nicest way I can put it...

And I think you have to play on Crystal Data Center for long enough to even understand why I would want enmity management to come back...

The problem is if you envision the combat system as a lovely bowl of delicious stew. then what the devs have basically done over the years is take all the ingredients out.

enmity may have been the potatoes,
TP the carrots,
MP the leaks,
Debuffs, the beans,
old ast cards the lentils,
cleric stance the onion.
etc., etc.
All added together made a fairly nice tasty stew.

what the combat system has become in recent XIV is nothing more than a bowl of water.. and if all they did was add emnity back then it becomes just a rather boring bowl of boiled potatoes and still lacking all the other ingredients that made it tasty and flavorful.

any one ingredient on its own doesn't make or break a combat system it's how they all work together. and you can't make a delicious bowl of stew without a delicious mix of ingredients.

In regards to the food analogy, I would have gone with the "you ask for the chef to make grilled cheese sandwich and they make a culinary monstrosity instead" but the Stew analogy works too... though old AST cards coming back would need their own separate thread(if one doesn't exist already) on the healer forums, same with Cleric stance, which then raise the question; what part of the game is the meat and what kind of meat...?

[Rithy255]

In regards to the food analogy, I would have gone with the "you ask for the chef to make grilled cheese sandwich and they make a culinary monstrosity instead" but the Stew analogy works too... though old AST cards coming back would need their own separate thread(if one doesn't exist already) on the healer forums, same with Cleric stance, which then raise the question; what part of the game is the meat and what kind of meat...?

The Meat of the combat system would obviously be the rotations and stuff, that we still have in game but the meat on its own isn't as good with the ingredients added in, also the meat is left overs from shadowbringers a bit stale... and did i find a fly in the meat??? aka the 120 raid buff system and burst meta.

But what we need is fresh food, a new take on combat is strongly needed, not just tank aggro management but in general we need those ingredients that make the combat actually enjoyable, Tanks need more Varity and just more to do other then being defensive DPS, healers also need varity but in the opposite direction more buttons to press! old astro or at least something similar...

Personally I hope we don't get more leftovers from shadow bringers, SHB was fun! But a watered down version of the same thing gets stale and boring really quickly, Right now i See they either double down on the SHB "leftovers" or actually make us something fresh and new.

[Burmecia]

I wouldn't mind having it back, since I do miss it, sometimes.

[kuroashi_sanji]

Yes please, tank are now just blue DPS with boring rotation.

[Mikey_R]

Yes please, tank are now just blue DPS with boring rotation.

But the old enmity system wouldn't change that at all. You just established enmity at the start, then swapped for the rest of the fight. You now have your enmity combo which is taking up button space which could be used for something else.

However, the question should be, why do you think enmity is the only thing that could be added that would make tanks interesting? Especially when, looking back on it, it done no such thing.