Enmity Management, Do we want it back?

[Elkanah]

That's... not possible.

You can't turn an un-failable system into a failable one without risking some people getting upset when the failures happen.

The argument is that it's worth doing in spite of that, because games where it's possible to fail due to insufficient personal skill are more entertaining, and for longer, than ones where it's not.

the problem with your argument is that yoshida wants everyone to play-- not a toxic environment pre heavensward. While some of us may enjoy the system it WAS before the changes, clearly YoshiP has the vision of avoiding that altogether for their theme park of being able to play any job you want regardless of experience. Skill level only applies to those who play endgame (you and I alike)-- and not the general population of playerbase who's 95% casual

[Mikey_R]

The problem with the old enmity system is it was a punishment on the tanks rather than being a reward. DPS was the default stance (sans initial enmity gain) and it was down to the rest of the party to manage their enmity so that you could stay in DPS stance.

Even if you wanted to use your enmity combo in DPS stance, since they didn't generate resources, it then messed with rotations, eg. PLD and DRK didn't restore MP.

This could be solved by both combos generating vital resources, however, if you make both combos essentially the same, just with different potencies and enmity modifiers, if you were every forced to use the enmity combo, it was again a punishment for the tank for other player's lack of team work, plus, having 2 combos do basically the same thing is definitely grounds for button bloat.

So, down to 1 combo, and you have either tank or DPS stance, say you cannot hold enmity in DPS, but you can in tank, well, that is basically what we have now, it's just been reduced to 1 stance instead of 2.

So, unless a different system is implemented that doesn't devolve into it being a punishment for tanks, then the system we have now is better.

[Burmecia]

Yes.
That's all.
Have a goof day.

[Rithy255]

Yes I want to be punished as Tank for playing incorrectly.
The current "tank stance" system is boring, tanks right now are both bargin bin DPS/Healers who has aggro if MT, who sometimes swaps with the OT depending on the fight.

Give tanks more to play around with if aggro management stays the same at least.

[Arohk]

Yes I want to be punished as Tank for playing incorrectly.
The current "tank stance" system is boring, tanks right now are both bargin bin DPS/Healers who has aggro if MT, who sometimes swaps with the OT depending on the fight.

It is not the Tank that gets punished for not holding aggro, it is the rest of the party that gets punished for a shitty tank. Do you honestly want a shitty tank in your party that constantly loses aggro?

[Supersnow845]

It is not the Tank that gets punished for not holding aggro, it is the rest of the party that gets punished for a shitty tank. Do you honestly want a shitty tank in your party that constantly loses aggro?

Yes because this is a cooperative game, I hate the idea that no role can be allowed to fail so we all play a bunch of wrapping in bubble wrap classes to make sure nobody can possibly fail

[Mikey_R]

Yes because this is a cooperative game, I hate the idea that no role can be allowed to fail so we all play a bunch of wrapping in bubble wrap classes to make sure nobody can possibly fail

The problem is, enmity is just a pass/fail check, so if you want a scenario where tanks can potentially fail, you then have to start talking about how finely tuned you want this enmity management to be.

Do you want the tank to be able to hold enmity whilst in tank stance doing their DPS combo? What if they done their enmity combo in DPS stance? Obviously, they should be able to hold it with tank stance and enmity combos, and they should be losing it in DPS stance doing their damage rotation, so the middle ground needs to be worked out.

Then, how does gearing affect this? What 'level' of enmity generation from above is required if you are all equally geared, how does this change when the tank out gears the DPS or the DPS out gears the tank? Just to clarify, we are talking about equally skilled players here. If the tank is under geared compared to the DPS, and they have to use tank stance/enmity combos where the equally geared did not have to, why is the tank being punished despite the fact they would be skilled enough? The tanks damage is already lower due to gear, but you want to reduce it even lower just because.

Next is about skill levels. Equally skilled, where should they sit on the enmity line. If the tank is more skilled than the DPS, would they be able to hold enmity in DPS stance using their DPS combo? How about the other way round, should the lower skilled tank be forced into tank stance and enmity combos?

And now, since we have dealt with them in isolation, let's mix the 2 groups together, how does varying degrees of skill AND gear affect your ability to tank?

However, let's be honest here. All someone did in SB in a party of randoms was start the fight with their ranged attack, use an enmity combo, and swapped to DPS stance and used their DPS combo for the rest of the fight, or at least the majority of it. You rarely had to touch your enmity combo after the initial pull so again, it is just wasted button space.

I guarantee a lot of people are looking back at SB enmity management with rose tinted glasses and, for one reason or another, they didn't necessarily see the flaws in the system. This is before we even get into Provoke/Shirk where, if you had the opportunity, you could sky rocket your enmity where enmity management wasn't an issue anyway, killing whatever sort of nuance it might have had.

[vetch]

Then, how does gearing affect this? What 'level' of enmity generation from above is required if you are all equally geared, how does this change when the tank out gears the DPS or the DPS out gears the tank? Just to clarify, we are talking about equally skilled players here. If the tank is under geared compared to the DPS, and they have to use tank stance/enmity combos where the equally geared did not have to, why is the tank being punished despite the fact they would be skilled enough? The tanks damage is already lower due to gear, but you want to reduce it even lower just because.

If the DPS is more geared than you, then you just generate extra enmity where necessary while the geared DPS makes up for your lowered damage to keep the party's DPS the same or better. This is only a 'punishment' if you're a parse-brain, otherwise it's just a matter of coordination.

[Rithy255]

It is not the Tank that gets punished for not holding aggro, it is the rest of the party that gets punished for a shitty tank. Do you honestly want a shitty tank in your party that constantly loses aggro?

Yeah it's not the healer who gets punished for not healing when they need its the party who gets punished.


awesome logic lol.

Not like you have to give aggro management to tanks, but tanks need something other then being "defensive dps"

[Noox-115]

Yo fellow tanks, it’s as the title says do we want enmity management back? If so how should we go about it? Would we still keep Tank stance? Or are things better the way they are now? Personally I think things are okay the way they are, but I would certainly be open to the idea of putting more enmity responsibility on the tank, it would just have to be better balanced than in StB(that’s when I started, maybe I was just new and it was a skill issue, not sure tbh). Maybe Provoke could have a shorter cooldown, Flash(and other tanks equivalent) could have a bigger radius and maybe be oGCD, and maybe other select skills could have increased enmity generation. Anyways what do you guys think?

I want, that Blue DPS way of thinking need to go we are tanks not DPS