Enmity Management, Do we want it back?

[Chajii]

How is this any different from players wiping the party by greeding a GCD in the modern game?

God forbid our party based game actually play like a party based game.

If you are genuinely asking about the differences, the fact that greeding a GCD is bad is easier to learn for newer players, while tanks having damage stances and tank stances, healers having the HW cleric stance is way harder to utilise in comparison; for example if a player greeds a GCD without knowing it would wipe the party, others will tell them to not greed and assume the player listen, they simply don't greed and follow the others, a simple choice between to greed or not to greed, but the same thing cannot be said to stances unless you could teach a tank in real time when you switch between stances or when to use enmity combo.

At the end of the day, tanks and healers having stances made those roles had more responsibility hence less players were willing to pick up those roles, SE had to do something to remove some of the illusion of choice that made the roles less approachable to reduce the DPS queue time, as a result, here we are!

(for reference I only started the game as healer from early SB and didn't pick up a tank job until near ShB so maybe someone else have better ideas)

[BigCheez]

If you are genuinely asking about the differences, the fact that greeding a GCD is bad is easier to learn for newer players, while tanks having damage stances and tank stances, healers having the HW cleric stance is way harder to utilise in comparison; for example if a player greeds a GCD without knowing it would wipe the party, others will tell them to not greed and assume the player listen, they simply don't greed and follow the others, a simple choice between to greed or not to greed, but the same thing cannot be said to stances unless you could teach a tank in real time when you switch between stances or when to use enmity combo.

At the end of the day, tanks and healers having stances made those roles had more responsibility hence less players were willing to pick up those roles, SE had to do something to remove some of the illusion of choice that made the roles less approachable to reduce the DPS queue time, as a result, here we are!

(for reference I only started the game as healer from early SB and didn't pick up a tank job until near ShB so maybe someone else have better ideas)

They're literally identical.

New players can play safe and avoid greeding. New players can play safe and avoid using their DPS stance.
More experienced players can greed GCDs or push the amount of time spent in DPS stance.

Any difference is imagined. They're just different examples of skill expression, which has been almost entirely removed from the game. We need skill expression back.

[Chajii]

They're literally identical.

New players can play safe and avoid greeding. New players can play safe and avoid using their DPS stance.
More experienced players can greed GCDs or push the amount of time spent in DPS stance.

Any difference is imagined. They're just different examples of skill expression, which has been almost entirely removed from the game. We need skill expression back.

The not identical part is that all roles know how greeding works, but not many DPS players would learn how tank stances work while at the same time complain when the tank goes slower than what they are used to or how they watched in a video/stream, this behaviour could be observed in regards of wall-to-wall pulls that some newer tanks want to avoid w2w pulls but some players go ahead and pull for the tank and say nothing when the party ends up wiping.

To be clear, I do want space for skill expressions but I don't see how SE would agree that tank stances are suitable for it.

[Karkarov]

Do I want enmity management back in a game where last night I did a dungeon run where every dps stopped dpsing just to run ahead leaving me to kill the last mob alone as the tank (healer thinks they are dps so followed them). Yeah no. The players legit do not know how to play the game without it being as simple as "tank stance on, tank hit, tank aggro".

[CKNovel]

They're literally identical.

New players can play safe and avoid greeding. New players can play safe and avoid using their DPS stance.
More experienced players can greed GCDs or push the amount of time spent in DPS stance.

Any difference is imagined. They're just different examples of skill expression, which has been almost entirely removed from the game. We need skill expression back.

No there's a difference and that's the consequence.
If a player greeds a GCD, they'll take damage and possibly a damage down debuff. They directly suffer the consequence of their greed. Healers throws an oGCD at them and that's it.
If a player doesn't push their mitigation management, the group will suffer the consequence of a boss turning around, the tank will suffer the blame and will have to be forced to eat a tax to compensate for someone else.

Having the tank managing 90% of it and DPS 10% of it with a simple oGCD that reduces their enmity while suffering little consequences creates a toxic mindset where the low responsibility player will ask the higher responsibility player to take full responsibility.
I've played enough tank during HW/SB and jungler in League of Legends to know we're better off having only the tanks managing enmity.

[BigCheez]

No there's a difference and that's the consequence.
If a player greeds a GCD, they'll take damage and possibly a damage down debuff. They directly suffer the consequence of their greed. Healers throws an oGCD at them and that's it.
If a player doesn't push their mitigation management, the group will suffer the consequence of a boss turning around, the tank will suffer the blame and will have to be forced to eat a tax to compensate for someone else.

Having the tank managing 90% of it and DPS 10% of it with a simple oGCD that reduces their enmity while suffering little consequences creates a toxic mindset where the low responsibility player will ask the higher responsibility player to take full responsibility.
I've played enough tank during HW/SB and jungler in League of Legends to know we're better off having only the tanks managing enmity.

In any content where poor enmity management would actually be a problem, greeding a GCD can easily wipe the party.

[Chajii]

In any content where poor enmity management would actually be a problem, greeding a GCD can easily wipe the party.

First thing first, in situations such as bosses in dungeons, a player greeding only costs a healing resource from the healer, the boss turning around could lead to multiple players dying from it.

Telling them to leave the boss earlier is definitely easier than telling them to use Elusive Jump on cooldown as an example. Don't forget that if they weren't using their tools properly, then you would also have to explain to them why and how, which for the greed you can simply say "there is mechanic, stop doing your rotation and get to where you have to be"

[CKNovel]

In any content where poor enmity management would actually be a problem, greeding a GCD can easily wipe the party.

Greeding a GCD is hardly a wipe since boss hitboxes are the size of 3.5 football field and you can have permanent uptime.
Last time greeding a GCD was a problem and it would kill at least half the party... I think it was P6S?

Enmity missmanagement would just be annoying at best. Boss turns around, party gets angry at each other "Tank adjust" or "You pull you tank" mentality conflicting with each other...
Enmity management always was something minor you'd only manage at the opener then forget.

It was mostly a dungeon mechanic where beginners wouldn't even care about this mechanic but it would impact the tank.

[BigCheez]

First thing first, in situations such as bosses in dungeons, a player greeding only costs a healing resource from the healer, the boss turning around could lead to multiple players dying from it.

Telling them to leave the boss earlier is definitely easier than telling them to use Elusive Jump on cooldown as an example. Don't forget that if they weren't using their tools properly, then you would also have to explain to them why and how, which for the greed you can simply say "there is mechanic, stop doing your rotation and get to where you have to be"

Which dungeon boss could kill multiple players by turning around? They don't cleave and do basically no damage outside of being hit by mechanics. Absolute worst case scenario, a DPS manages to pull threat right before a tankbuster; but they can live it comfortably if they press their personals.

If a player isn't capable of pressing a button on cooldown, they aren't going to do enough damage to rip aggro. Your argument doesn't make sense.

[Canadane]

I just want SB combat back. ShB was the beginning of the end.