Data from lucky bancho about participation in field content

[Koros]

The result would be the same in either case.

No longevity doesn't just mean fewer player hours of play derived from that content, but also more than likely fewer months subbed.

Sure, but there's probably diminishing marginal returns to adding content beyond the usual MSQ, raids, dungeons etc., because the majority of the playerbase subs to prevent housing demolition, to make sure they hit their tome caps, to ERP in nightclubs.

What is easier: copy and paste an in-game enemy asset, make it bigger, and reuse a player mount animation, then sell it for $30, or make Bozja...?

We are all bound to simple economic laws. The way for consumers to fight back is to refuse to patronage low effort per revenue activities and products, like MogStation items, which is probably hopeless, or to damage the firm's reputation. The latter probably matters more these days, but probably also hopeless since for some bizarre reason there are those who would side with firms to the detriment of their own utility. You don't even need to boycott, you just need to make their product look like a hazard to people looking in. Many firms renew and make significant concessions when their reputation is truly at stake. The smart consumer is in a perpetual antagonistic relationship with the firm, regardless of the quality of the product. Only continual pressure and antagonism can stave off the backside of the invisible hand.

You can't fight the existence of the economic technology of microtransactions head-on, that's already a lost battle, and any sane profit-maximizing firm is going to pursue it in this industry and cut costs by shaving off more expensive projects (I would not be surprised if Lunar Whale, Cruise Chaser and Shadowkeeper made them more money than Bozja ever did). What you can do is damage their reputation. Regular players can shun white knights, threaten content creators, disparage the firm on Twitter, all this and more. Reputation threatens any firm's potential for growth; new customers do read reviews and are wary of badly-reviewed products, and they stay away from products with significant controversy. If only we banded together.

And yeah, without the threat of bankruptcy, firms will be complacent, so yes consumers should be pushing hard enough that there's a real chance the company goes under water and your favorite game shuts down. Because in the long run an industry where developers live in fear of the consumer is an industry where innovations and quality flourish. Of course this will never happen since most people are too stupid and fall for corporate PR and buy into carefully manicured PR events selling a modernized commodity fetish: one where you think that you are buying more than the product, because you are also buying the "love" and "care" poured into the product, with happy developers giving happy interviews - nevermind the well-known dark side of the entire gaming industry.

[Dzian]

I’m still not sure how square saw these numbers and thought people didn’t like field content but I think it’s pretty definitive evidence that field content is popular

Participation doesn't equal popularity, liked or even good content.

People still play healers doesn't mean healer design is great.

People still do pvp, doesn't mean pvp design is great because to this day a good number rof them just half ass there way through for the daily rewards.

Or when they do something like add fates to relic steps... every one hates fates but still does them..

It's all to laborious.

[Supersnow845]

Participation doesn't equal popularity, liked or even good content.

People still play healers doesn't mean healer design is great.

People still do pvp, doesn't mean pvp design is great because to this day a good number rof them just half ass there way through for the daily rewards.

Or when they do something like add fates to relic steps... every one hates fates but still does them..

It's all to laborious.

There was a stipulation there that when I said “like” I meant “engaged enough with to gain something out of”, I apparently was not clear on that, when I said I have no idea how square thinks people didn’t like field content I meant “I have no idea how square saw that 50% of people who unlocked Bozja got RR 25 and still decided to not make more” because for literally any content it’s extremely difficult to determine satisfaction beyond level of interaction

We still even argue on here if healers are actually bad or if this is an echo chamber (for example), if we can’t even agree on healer design how can square do much more than associate interaction with use

[Eorzean_username]

So the general impression that I'm beginning to take from all of the discussions raging about Exploratory Zones in the past few months is that...

Many?
Some?
A significant and non-trivial portion?

...of FFXIV players

• Actually do not enjoy playing basically any of the content that the game offers, up to and including most of the Battle content, because it's either frustrating (hard, defeats them, takes too many tries) or boring (too easy, overfamiliar, recycled systems and mechanics)

• Only do any content, if they do it at all, because they cannot resist the urge to check off checklists (even if it feels like an exhausting shopping-chore), or because they "need" it in order to do X (participate with friends, go to a zone for GPose, obtain a glamour, complete their character's narcissistic story, etc)

• Basically view content releases as a desperate excuse to keep themselves subscribed and logging in, because they don't want to leave the actual game itself / the world / their "possessions" / their character behind, and go elsewhere... even though they actually really don't like "playing" any of it very much

...Meaning that it actually, probably, barely matters "what" content is added, since a lot(?) of players won't really enjoy it either way, and will just do it "for the payoff" — and then, with great relief, stop and abandon it.

———————————————————

Is this a manifestation of SE's fundamental content and systems design — that it's just not very satisfying or engaging at a basic level, no matter how they rearrange or repackage it?

Or is this a manifestation of a certain mindset of player that XIV has, for whatever reason, attracted and accumulated over time, which is reaching a critical mass to the point where the developers can just view both Island Sanctuary and Eureka as "functionally equivalent" — since they both end up as, for "a lot" of players: "I guess I'll do this because I have to, and it's something to do, and then I'm quitting it ASAP"...?

It just seems like "excitement", "enthusiasm", "because people enjoy playing it just to play it" rarely if ever seems to explain content participation. It's always based on either "1-and-done curiosity" or "tangible bribe, followed by dropping once obtained".

———————————————————

Someone mentioned Normal Raids and it's like... yeah. It doesn't seem like players queue up for E3N at random just to "do it" because it's "fun". It's either 1-and-done for the Story, or grinded exactly as long as necessary to get a gear piece from the tedious tokens (and then dropped like a rock).

Would these players, functionally, even notice or care if Normal Raids were solo instances that just progressed the Story?

———————————————————

Given that, how much design motivation is there, really, to even create most of the content that the game releases? Why not pare back? Why not just give up and appease people with zany scenes of Zero discovering what a bikini is, Urianger drinking from a pineapple, and Shtola being sassy again?

[Shurrikhan]

Sure, but there's probably diminishing marginal returns to adding content beyond the usual MSQ, raids, dungeons etc., because the majority of the playerbase subs to prevent housing demolition, to make sure they hit their tome caps, to ERP in nightclubs.

I'm not sure why you're quoting me here, especailly before a response like... all this, which has little to nothing to do with what I said.

But, again, Exploratory Missions are almost certainly going to be more efficiently-spent development time (both in terms of hours played and subs therefore retained)... than even "the usual MSQ... dungeons, etc."

What is easier: copy and paste an in-game enemy asset, make it bigger, and reuse a player mount animation, then sell it for $30, or make Bozja...?

...Exploratory Missions are themselves just copy-pasted existing assets on a new zone map with at most a single new system gimmick per map.

You could remove would-be rewards from content and charge money for them on the Mogstation instead... from any content. It's not like Bozja is uniquely precluded by a desire to make money. They could next expansion just remove Savage mounts and put what would of been on the Mogstation instead. They could remove PvP gear and sell those appearances online.

The question is simply whether your players will remain subbed, and that comes down to more than just whether there are key rewards otherwise found only on the Mogstation at the end of the rainbow; the amount of player hours they can enjoy even when pursuing far less key rewards also play a factor -- where, again... content like EMs that can be enjoyed with more flexible party or community size, in more flexible ways, to more flexible goal lengths, with a more flexible range of means of distribution/acquisition for rewards (should the devs choose to include any at all) will tend to be better for retaining subs than far more rigid content forms like V/C Dungeons.

[Shurrikhan]

It just seems like "excitement", "enthusiasm", "because people enjoy playing it just to play it" rarely if ever seems to explain content participation. It's always based on either "1-and-done curiosity" or "tangible bribe, followed by dropping once obtained".

———————————————————

Someone mentioned Normal Raids and it's like... yeah. It doesn't seem like players queue up for E3N at random just to "do it" because it's "fun". It's either 1-and-done for the Story, or grinded exactly as long as necessary to get a gear piece from the tedious tokens (and then dropped like a rock).

Tangent, but when Extreme Trials first hit DF in ARR and mount-farming hadn't completely moved over to tryhardish PFs, I actually loved queuing up for random Extremes during the dead of night. Usually 3 to 5 others of party would be mount-farmers or likewise grinding for fun and were plenty competent, and you'd often see 1-3 people again from one run to the next, but queues were short and it just felt great to be able to drop whenever without inconveniencing anyone despite still playing content that was pretty fun in itself. Never got the mount that way, but could hardly have cared less; I just really liked min-maxing Monk, Bard, or DRG in Levi Ex, etc.

I miss that shit. Though I also miss FATEs being more active, for when leveling or otherwise, as per early ARR Relics. Etc., etc.

And I as braindead as Anemos FATE-trains and pre-work Diadem were, I kinda miss Exploratory Missions, since this character missed the opportunity to get to a high enough level in Bozja to actually move around before everyone else had long since completed it, leaving me no one to grind with. (I mean that quite seriously. It's usually under 15 people for the whole zone, and none of them early level, at the times I can play.) I'd really have loved to see them improved upon instead of more dev time going to V/C dungeon, because the general "Exploratory Mission" model just seems a far more cost-efficient, iconic, flexible, and lucrative fit for an MMO.

[Eorzean_username]

Tangent, but [...] I actually loved queuing up for random Extremes during the dead of night.

Ah yeah, in case it came across wrong, I'm not trying to imply or accuse "every" player of having that attitude.

Just that whenever content participation gets brought up, one of the major points loaded into a lot of responses is something along the lines of,

"Yeah, but were you there at the time? Everyone hated it and complained constantly, they only did it because [X] "

And it made me start thinking, "Uh, do most of the players actually 'like' anything, or is it always just 'doing it because [X], while complaining' for Y percentage (that seems to be implicitly large) ?"

[Shurrikhan]

Ah yeah, in case it came across wrong, I'm not trying to imply or accuse "every" player of having that attitude.

Just that whenever content participation gets brought up, one of the major points loaded into a lot of responses is something along the lines of,

"Yeah, but were you there at the time? Everyone hated it and complained constantly, they only did it because [X] "

And it made me start thinking, "Uh, do most of the players actually 'like' anything, or is it always just 'doing it because [X] while complaining' for Y percentage (that seems to be implicitly large) ?"

Understood. And I agree with the general conclusion; I wasn't trying to use my anecdote to refute it.

My point was more that there have been times where rewards have felt less immediate a concern due to perhaps to the 'layout' or 'implementation' of those rewards (that you didn't need to put in X hours before you even had a chance at any worthwhile reward, and/or that there was a larger span of activities that could feel decently rewarding).

Or, put another way, I don't think it's (just) that the community has become so much harder to appease; while reward oversaturation or the like may increasingly negatively impact the community's perceptions of content, the reward schemes/balances themselves also play a significant part, I would expect.

[VelKallor]

Username: this is a generalised reply and doesnt come back to you at all.

So the general impression that I'm beginning to take from all of the discussions raging about Exploratory Zones in the past few months is that...

...what you are reading is the perpetual whining of a tiny band of malcontents who dont know what the playerbase wants, is drawing a long bow based on partial or highly incomplete data, and in fact has no idea of the entire picture, since they do not have access to any metrics or data held by Square Enix, who in fact DO have this data , and know what they are doing and why.

Actually do not enjoy playing basically any of the content that the game offers, up to and including most of the Battle content, because it's either frustrating (hard, defeats them, takes too many tries) or boring (too easy, overfamiliar, recycled systems and mechanics)

No.

Only do any content, if they do it at all, because they cannot resist the urge to check off checklists (even if it feels like an exhausting shopping-chore), or because they "need" it in order to do X (participate with friends, go to a zone for GPose, obtain a glamour, complete their character's narcissistic story, etc)

Each persons motives are their own, we have zero data to indicate any kind of trend.

• Basically view content releases as a desperate excuse to keep themselves subscribed and logging in, because they don't want to leave the actual game itself / the world / their "possessions" / their character behind, and go elsewhere... even though they actually really don't like "playing" any of it very much

There is no proof of any kind to show this even remotely resembles any such sweeping statement. No one knows. Unless you speak to each and every player or conduct some kind of comprehensive survey, the above is again assuming facts not in any form of evidence.

...Meaning that it actually, probably, barely matters "what" content is added, since a lot(?) of players won't really enjoy it either way, and will just do it "for the payoff" — and then, with great relief, stop and abandon it.

Using THIS echo chamber as any kind of actual representation of the millions of players nmo one has ever consulted?

No.

Would these players, functionally, even notice or care if Normal Raids were solo instances that just progressed the Story?

I believe so, yes. They would mind and care. Very much so.

Take one look at the Annotated Endwalker MSQ panel to get a general view of the complexities in the story we have seen. That alone is a graphic example of how little any of us know on how the MSQ content is even designed, let alone created.

Username: this really comes down to three words when trying to assess what players want and dont want.

We. dont. know.

[Eorzean_username]

My point was more that there have been times where rewards have felt less immediate a concern [...]

Yeah I agree with that, I just can't quite "put my finger" on why.

I have this vague sense that there used to be a lot less of an aura of "exhaustion" with having to "do" anything in the game, and players having a little more zeal for "playing just to play", with the rewards being mostly a bonus for doing that, rather than the explicit purpose.

But I can't tell if it's just coloured selective memory or not.

And I think you may be right that it's partially something to do with a certain sense that something is "off" about XIV's reward structure at some fundamental level, though this isn't an area that I feel confident elaborating on further since it's not something I personally think about too much (because I'm not a collector-type and I'm personally not motivated by much besides 'Is this fun for me to play').

We. dont. know.

Well to a degree yes, but the thing is, I see these sorts of sentiments expressed across a broad slice of the XIV discussion "pipelines".

Like it doesn't matter if someone brings up Exploratory Zones in a Discord, r/ffxiv, r/ffxivdiscussion, XIV Twitter-sphere, etc — I'll consistently see people pop-in pointing out how much hostility there was about "glorified FATE grinding" and that "people only did it because they had to for Relics".

Generally when a sentiment, for example, survives with positive vote count on both r/ffxiv and r/ffxivdiscussion, that suggests to me that there's probably some element of accuracy to it, since it's managing to bypass the distinctly-different "firewall filters" that each community attracts.

I see something similar with Orthos / Deep Dungeon and even Variant / Criterion too: "Not very much fun, got boring fast, insufficient rewards, abandoned now... [etc] ".

And so I began thinking, "Why does it seem like XIV creates a lot of content that people just viscerally dislike actually 'doing' beyond the X hours of Story that it provides ?"