From Meleewalker to Meleetrail

[Renathras]

I really hope that they eliminate the arbitrary subdivision between ranged subtypes so that we can put these complaints to rest. There are six ranged jobs currently (excluding BLU) going on to seven next expansion. There's never been a lack of options for players who want to play at a distance, and it's always is the predominant playstyle in any MMO. Rather than pushing for eight ranged jobs, we really should be adding in more supports, which I hope will be in the next set of additions.

This is the worst of possible takes.

Caster and Ranged appeal to different types of people, as does Melee. They aren't the same. We saw that when people got furious over BRD having cast times. The Melee all operate in more or less the same BASIC way. They stay in range of the boss, have at least two positionals (I can't think of a Melee that doesn't, though Positionals have also been way toned down, this used to be a lot more), and are all about keeping uptime on the boss by keeping in range (which is somewhat laughably easy with current boss hitboxes).

Ranged, on the other hand, are all about mobility and keeping their GCDs rolling while being able to flex into mechanics that others can't easily get into, while Casters are about maintaining their casting uptime (which is even a thing for SMN, though much less so than RDM and BLM). If anything, the existing homogenization is already bad, since Casters (other than BLM) have lost any semblance of MP management, and MCH has lost the Ranged's sub-role of Support/buffer, which it had back in SB.

We should be more differentiating them, not combining them.

It's also highly limiting to party composition to force MMRC instead of MRCX, the latter of which people seem to prefer since they can build around what they and their friends have instead of having to recruit people/force people to change Jobs.

This "suggestion" almost always seems to come from Melee mains, but you never really see other people supporting the idea of mandatory 2Melee comps...

[PercibelTheren]

This is the worst of possible takes.

Caster and Ranged appeal to different types of people, as does Melee. They aren't the same. We saw that when people got furious over BRD having cast times. The Melee all operate in more or less the same BASIC way. They stay in range of the boss, have at least two positionals (I can't think of a Melee that doesn't, though Positionals have also been way toned down, this used to be a lot more), and are all about keeping uptime on the boss by keeping in range (which is somewhat laughably easy with current boss hitboxes).

Ranged, on the other hand, are all about mobility and keeping their GCDs rolling while being able to flex into mechanics that others can't easily get into, while Casters are about maintaining their casting uptime (which is even a thing for SMN, though much less so than RDM and BLM). If anything, the existing homogenization is already bad, since Casters (other than BLM) have lost any semblance of MP management, and MCH has lost the Ranged's sub-role of Support/buffer, which it had back in SB.

We should be more differentiating them, not combining them.

It's also highly limiting to party composition to force MMRC instead of MRCX, the latter of which people seem to prefer since they can build around what they and their friends have instead of having to recruit people/force people to change Jobs.

This "suggestion" almost always seems to come from Melee mains, but you never really see other people supporting the idea of mandatory 2Melee comps...

From my limited understanding of things (I raid exclusively as a healer), double melee comps are mostly a thing because melee jobs offer more damage output. If that weren't the case, party compositions would be more flexible. At this point, I don't think it should be the case because boss hitboxes are so gigantic that a ranged tax makes no sense.

[Lyth]

...

You might not have noticed this, but raid content is designed around a 2/2/2/2 setup. The standard spread/stack/role/group setups that you do with clock positions and intercards on every fight this expansion reflect this. Tanks and melee intrinsically are disadvantaged for having extra people in melee range unnecessarily because it results in uptime losses. If you were allowed the option of a fully ranged party, you would take it because it would simplify mechanics tremendously and give you a lot of flexibility. If their expected role balance wasn't obvious to you, it's also worth noting that the patch notes explicitly list a 1/1/1/1 setup for Criterion dungeons, where Physical Ranged and Caster are yet again merged into a single category.

It's also worth noting that your complaints around hitbox size, while more valid for Abyssos, have subsequently been addressed in the current tier.

The idea of physical ranged as a sort of inferior version of caster that can 'flex to do mechanics' is something that only caster mains want to perpetuate (and doesn't really happen in practice - the only recent 'physical ranged' specific mechanic that I can think of is Caloric 2, and that's just a case of Casters being able to dump an unwanted mechanic). In practice, caster jobs are 'casters' in all but name only, especially in the wake of the SMN rework. I think if you offered MCH the opportunity to do BLM level dps in exchange for occasionally having to set up a tripod and fire off sniper shots à la leylines, they would take it in a heartbeat. This isn't Heavensward, and with Casters having so many instant cast and movement options at their disposal, I don't think that Physical Ranged would struggle with the occasional hard cast. Even some melee jobs have them, in addition to positionals.

I think rather than treating physical ranged as second-class casters, we'd be much better off if the DPS discrepancies within the ranged role are eliminated. Then we can have all subroles provide equivalent rDPS so that everyone is appropriately valued. Don't worry, the devs will still find ways of stopping you from running that much more comfy triple ranged comp if they decide to equalize things.

[Supersnow845]

We went multiple expansions where double caster was a totally valid comp (and I mean any double caster not one of those casters has to be BLM to act as a melee by proxy) and double physical ranged used to be meta, there is no reason (other than square’s weird love of melee recently) that 2/2/1/2/1 or 2/2/1/1/2 should not be totally valid comps

Caster and phys ranged fill different niches (well at least they did when we actually had mechanics that challenged a role specifically, like the caster/phys ranged bait on O11 that favoured double phys ranged), forcing 2 melee is something only melee mains want because it also makes their mechanics easier and gives them more jobs than they need

[Duskane]

I think its just easier to class things as caster and phys range
its just too vague otherwise

[Rithy255]

I'm only gonna be happy if the new melee is a pirate and the new caster is necromancer.
If not zzz.

Honestly first expansion in a while without a new tank/healer so look forward to longer queue times if they double down on the bad healer/tank design changes. (Healer especially)

[Supersnow845]

People only want two new DPS if they never experienced the 5.0 queue wait times and this time there is no Bozja to save you

[Payadopa]

If you were allowed the option of a fully ranged party, you would take it because it would simplify mechanics tremendously and give you a lot of flexibility. If their expected role balance wasn't obvious to you, it's also worth noting that the patch notes explicitly list a 1/1/1/1 setup for Criterion dungeons, where Physical Ranged and Caster are yet again merged into a single category.

The idea of physical ranged as a sort of inferior version of caster that can 'flex to do mechanics' is something that only caster mains want to perpetuate (and doesn't really happen in practice -

Personally, I think phys ranged are by far the easiest jobs to play in terms of mechanics. But that's fine. If you don't want positionals or a cast bar there you go.

And the Criterion thing just makes sense. You have a tank (melee) and a healer (ranged) on one end and on the other you also have a melee DPS and a ranged job.

The last thing I want to see is breaking down barriers between roles now. The barriers between jobs themselves are miniscule already. No need to spread that to roles, too.

[Valence]

This is the worst of possible takes.

Caster and Ranged appeal to different types of people, as does Melee. They aren't the same. We saw that when people got furious over BRD having cast times. The Melee all operate in more or less the same BASIC way. They stay in range of the boss, have at least two positionals (I can't think of a Melee that doesn't, though Positionals have also been way toned down, this used to be a lot more), and are all about keeping uptime on the boss by keeping in range (which is somewhat laughably easy with current boss hitboxes).

Ranged, on the other hand, are all about mobility and keeping their GCDs rolling while being able to flex into mechanics that others can't easily get into, while Casters are about maintaining their casting uptime (which is even a thing for SMN, though much less so than RDM and BLM). If anything, the existing homogenization is already bad, since Casters (other than BLM) have lost any semblance of MP management, and MCH has lost the Ranged's sub-role of Support/buffer, which it had back in SB.

We should be more differentiating them, not combining them.

It's also highly limiting to party composition to force MMRC instead of MRCX, the latter of which people seem to prefer since they can build around what they and their friends have instead of having to recruit people/force people to change Jobs.

This "suggestion" almost always seems to come from Melee mains, but you never really see other people supporting the idea of mandatory 2Melee comps...

I wish we rPhys still had "mechanics that others can't easily do we could flex into" tbh. I remember fondly of O11S during Pantokrator, but those unicorn cases I can count on the fingers of my hand, and honestly haven't seen any like those for ages. And let's face it, to make such a statement be solid and make the role actually a good pick consistently, would ask for almost every savage fight to have at least one of those mechanics... And we're not exactly there, are we, right?

Savage has always been for years about M1, M2, R1 and R2 positions, and R1 and R2 always been interchangeable unfortunately. Even BLM has become a melee somewhat those days...

You might not have noticed this, but raid content is designed around a 2/2/2/2 setup. The standard spread/stack/role/group setups that you do with clock positions and intercards on every fight this expansion reflect this. Tanks and melee intrinsically are disadvantaged for having extra people in melee range unnecessarily because it results in uptime losses. If you were allowed the option of a fully ranged party, you would take it because it would simplify mechanics tremendously and give you a lot of flexibility. If their expected role balance wasn't obvious to you, it's also worth noting that the patch notes explicitly list a 1/1/1/1 setup for Criterion dungeons, where Physical Ranged and Caster are yet again merged into a single category.

It's also worth noting that your complaints around hitbox size, while more valid for Abyssos, have subsequently been addressed in the current tier.

The idea of physical ranged as a sort of inferior version of caster that can 'flex to do mechanics' is something that only caster mains want to perpetuate (and doesn't really happen in practice - the only recent 'physical ranged' specific mechanic that I can think of is Caloric 2, and that's just a case of Casters being able to dump an unwanted mechanic). In practice, caster jobs are 'casters' in all but name only, especially in the wake of the SMN rework. I think if you offered MCH the opportunity to do BLM level dps in exchange for occasionally having to set up a tripod and fire off sniper shots à la leylines, they would take it in a heartbeat. This isn't Heavensward, and with Casters having so many instant cast and movement options at their disposal, I don't think that Physical Ranged would struggle with the occasional hard cast. Even some melee jobs have them, in addition to positionals.

I think rather than treating physical ranged as second-class casters, we'd be much better off if the DPS discrepancies within the ranged role are eliminated. Then we can have all subroles provide equivalent rDPS so that everyone is appropriately valued. Don't worry, the devs will still find ways of stopping you from running that much more comfy triple ranged comp if they decide to equalize things.

Yeah as a rPhys player I can confirm, at this point I'll take anything to not be a subpar BLM or melee that's just here for the 1% party bonus (let's not kid ourselves for a minute). My job, except perhaps for DNC and even then, is way harder to execute than SMN. Anybody trying to convince me that BRD optimization is easy on top of getting all your GCDs under RS is not tight as heck can go eat a karakul as far as i'm concerned, and I'm not even speaking about how reliant you are on your team damage not to suck, else your 15% rDPS coming from your mates is gonna look more like a 1.5%... And while positioning and movement may be not a problem, I'm sorry but some of those rotations aren't exactly easier than RDM either.

But hey, I guess they're not faring exactly better this expansion hah. Maybe it's a silver lining in a way because it makes people actually talk about it. It's not just rphys anymore, it's the whole ranged dps community.

[GoatOfWar]

I'd say something along the lines of ''sad tank main noises'' but we all know how stupidly similar healers and tanks all are now.
A new tank would just be warrior but worse, and a healer would just be a carbon copy of whm like sage was a carbon copy of sch.