From Meleewalker to Meleetrail

[SaberMaxwell]

Hey if all ranged had cast times I'd be down. Honestly I'm of the opinion that casters should be casting more, although Endwalker's fight design often forgets it has players who don't have infinite movement options.

Personally I'm interested to see what the new caster is and what they plan to do. Cynically I see them moving in the opposite direction Lyth would like, instead of merging the ranged altogether (which I disagree with but I'm just a caster / melee main so I guess I'm biased :shrug they're instead gonna crack the caster role in half along the lines of "raise caster" and "damage caster."

In my ideal world raise is just removed from the role and damage is overall increased but that's because I think casters need to either be as mobile as phys ranged or do more damage, because otherwise they get completely dropped from meta as has happened for almost two entire expansions in a row. Heck even today you can see the most popular "caster" by far has no cast times basically, SMN's savage population totalling RDM's and BLM's combined. And when they keep designing fights like casters are all as mobile as SMN I can see why; Program Loop and Panto are absolute nightmares in TOP, Abyssos was relentless in its hatred of casters, and I can see a few mechanics in Anabeisos that would be frustrating but I got to melee this tier and lemme tell you its been blessedly easy as melee.

My other chief worry is that they'll keep adding insta casts to casters and making them more mobile, which if they all become as mobile as SMN instead of them kneecapping SMN and stealing their nikes, then yeah their damage should have parity with phys ranged. Like they currently do bar BLM I guess.

[Rychu]

In my ideal world raise is just removed from the role and damage is overall increased but that's because I think casters need to either be as mobile as phys ranged or do more damage, because otherwise they get completely dropped from meta as has happened for almost two entire expansions in a row. Heck even today you can see the most popular "caster" by far has no cast times basically, SMN's savage population totalling RDM's and BLM's combined. And when they keep designing fights like casters are all as mobile as SMN I can see why; Program Loop and Panto are absolute nightmares in TOP, Abyssos was relentless in its hatred of casters, and I can see a few mechanics in Anabeisos that would be frustrating but I got to melee this tier and lemme tell you its been blessedly easy as melee.

Dude omg I feel so heard right now. P12S is so unfriendly to Red Mage's burst window since I'm required to be in melee range for my burst. Weeeeeelllll Superchain Theory I and Caloric II both involve R2 being removed from the boss so my damage gets fucked both times unless I have the group adjust for me, and even then I do less damage than I do when I switch to Summoner. Something has to give, either they lean away from the melee phase that sorta defines the job and is honestly super fun to do for movement or change fight design to allow more leniency in spacing, which they DEFINITELY wont do. Wouldn't be surprised if we got a mini rework

[kayll]

Dude omg I feel so heard right now. P12S is so unfriendly to Red Mage's burst window since I'm required to be in melee range for my burst. Weeeeeelllll Superchain Theory I and Caloric II both involve R2 being removed from the boss so my damage gets fucked both times unless I have the group adjust for me, and even then I do less damage than I do when I switch to Summoner. Something has to give, either they lean away from the melee phase that sorta defines the job and is honestly super fun to do for movement or change fight design to allow more leniency in spacing, which they DEFINITELY wont do. Wouldn't be surprised if we got a mini rework

Feels like a lot of fights this ends up happening,2minute burst comes around and its time for mechanics with strict positions and you are placed out of range every time, and every time it feels awful.

At this point the only things I want for RDM skill wise in the new expansion is reskinned melee combos with additional range, I mean they are utilizing magic right?
That and a personal shield so I don't fall over to unavoidable raidwides that everyone else lives,with the rest of my group asking if I flipped into the wall or something.

[Valence]

Hey if all ranged had cast times I'd be down.

How about NO? I don't want to play a caster, thanks.

Give me iajutsu like moves, or some pvp cast times SPARSELY, I'm game, but don't turn me into an actual caster.

And tbh it's not gonna happen due to the backlash it would generate, like back in HW. They learned the lesson, but people are quick to forget.

Honestly I'm of the opinion that casters should be casting more, although Endwalker's fight design often forgets it has players who don't have infinite movement options.

Agreed. Rphys rotations should make up for it by being more complex and engaging like they used to be.

they're instead gonna crack the caster role in half along the lines of "raise caster" and "damage caster."

That's already kinda the case and it's the stuff of balance nightmares.

because otherwise they get completely dropped from meta as has happened for almost two entire expansions in a row.

Only Endwalker. Casters have strived in ShB and were able to match the top group of damage dealers (aka melees), with perhaps the exception of RDM that has always lagged behind historically since its inception, but was still able to out damage any rphys job period, until EW/today (rip RDM, always in the grave). Anyway, welcome to the mobility tax hell, SMN friendos. I'm sure you like it as much as we do.

Program Loop and Panto are absolute nightmares in TOP, Abyssos was relentless in its hatred of casters, and I can see a few mechanics in Anabeisos that would be frustrating but I got to melee this tier and lemme tell you its been blessedly easy as melee.

That's a bit rose tinted. Savage Pantokrator was already a mobility annoyance for every caster in existence (healers included). And that's not the only mechanic of before ShB/EW. The only savages were mobility was less of a thing in my opinion happened before SB.

You also have to take into consideration that every caster had a lot less mobility tools, BLM included (esp BLM). How did people cope with it? They just did, and had not full uptime, but those days, it frustrates people just to think about it.

[UkcsAlias]

Agreed. Rphys rotations should make up for it by being more complex and engaging like they used to be.

Ranged dps suffers from the issue of being the middle between the 2: Casters have cast times, melee has positionals. Both mechanics that make positioning themselve as part of the balance. By not having such restriction, you generaly will only end up with the rotation itself as downtime by forced movement isnt an issue. And micro positioning which a melee dps often can do usualy also barely matters (wall boss, or the boss barely rotates because the tank rarely needs to dodge in such way it causes boss rotations).

To me the best way to solve the ranged dps issue, is by introducing some sort of positional system in them.

Something like a minimum range: being further away increases damage, but increases risks of extended downtime when you need to move out of the way. Automaticly also giving a certain situation in which you can be sure they are prefered, or discouraged. Damage at that point then can be allowed to exceed other jobs since depending on the fight, you might not be able to use that, or since it gets used more often might promote it.

You can also simply make it 2 buttons: close range/long range and force the players to alternate them for higher damage. This makes a certain distance from the boss optimal, and can provide similar restrictions to the melee dpses (like wall bosses not providing a back).

[Valence]

Ranged dps suffers from the issue of being the middle between the 2: Casters have cast times, melee has positionals. Both mechanics that make positioning themselve as part of the balance. By not having such restriction, you generaly will only end up with the rotation itself as downtime by forced movement isnt an issue. And micro positioning which a melee dps often can do usualy also barely matters (wall boss, or the boss barely rotates because the tank rarely needs to dodge in such way it causes boss rotations).

To me the best way to solve the ranged dps issue, is by introducing some sort of positional system in them.

Something like a minimum range: being further away increases damage, but increases risks of extended downtime when you need to move out of the way. Automaticly also giving a certain situation in which you can be sure they are prefered, or discouraged. Damage at that point then can be allowed to exceed other jobs since depending on the fight, you might not be able to use that, or since it gets used more often might promote it.

You can also simply make it 2 buttons: close range/long range and force the players to alternate them for higher damage. This makes a certain distance from the boss optimal, and can provide similar restrictions to the melee dpses (like wall bosses not providing a back).

Screw positionals. I hate them. That's why I play rphys.

The problem with that kind of positionals is that it will make every healer scream in pain and secretly hating any rphys player for standing in narnia. Another problem with which I don't trust SE at all is the UI, because this game UI has always been medieval especially when it comes to feedbacks. It's already a pain with melee DPS positionals... How do you want to play through ranged positionals without huge grids and radiuses covering our screens clearly showing where we're in the green, good dps area, and where we're not? This is already a problem with pvp BRD right now, and DRG a little as well.

I'm however very much okay with close and long range skills, which DNC used to have during its bursts in ShB and lost for the bland Starfall and Tilana designs we have in EW. It worked very well, but I doubt it was really a consideration into damage output balance either. Do we want to add this on every skill they have? Then we run into a problem, because filler shots can't else you'd just screw every time they have to be close, and if it's making filler shots close range, then rphys just becomes a glorified melee.

So, where would this work? For MCH, probably on Tools (Drill long range, Chainsaw short range with a damage falloff the furthest away targets are), for BRD probably on Apex/Blast (long range), and DNC probably on Tilana and Starfall.