From Meleewalker to Meleetrail

[Valence]

Ranged dps suffers from the issue of being the middle between the 2: Casters have cast times, melee has positionals. Both mechanics that make positioning themselve as part of the balance. By not having such restriction, you generaly will only end up with the rotation itself as downtime by forced movement isnt an issue. And micro positioning which a melee dps often can do usualy also barely matters (wall boss, or the boss barely rotates because the tank rarely needs to dodge in such way it causes boss rotations).

To me the best way to solve the ranged dps issue, is by introducing some sort of positional system in them.

Something like a minimum range: being further away increases damage, but increases risks of extended downtime when you need to move out of the way. Automaticly also giving a certain situation in which you can be sure they are prefered, or discouraged. Damage at that point then can be allowed to exceed other jobs since depending on the fight, you might not be able to use that, or since it gets used more often might promote it.

You can also simply make it 2 buttons: close range/long range and force the players to alternate them for higher damage. This makes a certain distance from the boss optimal, and can provide similar restrictions to the melee dpses (like wall bosses not providing a back).

Screw positionals. I hate them. That's why I play rphys.

The problem with that kind of positionals is that it will make every healer scream in pain and secretly hating any rphys player for standing in narnia. Another problem with which I don't trust SE at all is the UI, because this game UI has always been medieval especially when it comes to feedbacks. It's already a pain with melee DPS positionals... How do you want to play through ranged positionals without huge grids and radiuses covering our screens clearly showing where we're in the green, good dps area, and where we're not? This is already a problem with pvp BRD right now, and DRG a little as well.

I'm however very much okay with close and long range skills, which DNC used to have during its bursts in ShB and lost for the bland Starfall and Tilana designs we have in EW. It worked very well, but I doubt it was really a consideration into damage output balance either. Do we want to add this on every skill they have? Then we run into a problem, because filler shots can't else you'd just screw every time they have to be close, and if it's making filler shots close range, then rphys just becomes a glorified melee.

So, where would this work? For MCH, probably on Tools (Drill long range, Chainsaw short range with a damage falloff the furthest away targets are), for BRD probably on Apex/Blast (long range), and DNC probably on Tilana and Starfall.

[ForsakenRoe]

Combining PhysRanged and MagicRanged into one 'Ranged' category would not necessitate adding cast times to the Physical Ranged jobs. It'd just mean that a party would be looking for 2 tanks/healers/melee/ranged. How often have people been in PF, looking for one slot to fill, going 'does anyone in this game still play ranged, we'll even take a MCH come onnnnn'? I've also had to be in the position of telling someone 'sorry, we need a Physranged for the 1%' in prog, because that 1% is what will get us past enrage, and getting a 2Melee/RDM/SMN comp would mean we're below the check, and that feels terrible

Besides that, SMN is now down to 4 cast times per minute (3 if you swiftcast one), yet it remains in the 'Caster' role, because it's not actually a 'Caster', but a 'Magical Ranged DPS'. Cast times are not inherent to any particular role, the main damage type they use is what differentiates them. Else we'd have to call RPR and SAM some kind of 'Caster' thanks to Iaijutsu and Communio, and that would be silly

Personally I'd be fine with the 2 ranged archetypes combining, because I'm really not a fan of a role being kept on lifesupport for raiding by the fact it brings 1% stat boost to the group. 'A certain other MMO' does not make the distinction between it's physical ranged and magic ranged specs (well, Hunter's the only Phys they have, I guess), I've never known why we do

[SaberMaxwell]

I wish I had your problems, Forsaken, rather than issues of "why would we accept you into the party as RDM, you do less damage than every phys ranged but dancer and you're a liability to the group and its strats compared to the free running SMN". Personally I've never really the issue you do, its fairly easy to find a smn and a phys ranged.

Also yes, we do colloquially call them casters but in reality they're called magical ranged. My stance remains that magical ranged dps should be bound tightly by casting mechanics, (EDIT: and the place smn is in right now is a travesty for many reasons) but any world where they're competing with phys ranged for a spot will necessitate SMN levels of mobility (barf) because by the time casters have enough for the mobility cost to be diminished the phys ranged are launched from the see-saw.

And I feel you Rychu. Red Mages have it tough a lot of the time this expac. Ironic that this game so melee-heavy screws the melee-caster over so bad.

[SaberMaxwell]

Let me start on the last bit: "in TOP." The latest Ultimate released in Endwalker based on Stormblood raids. Unless you really are just talking about pre-ShB raiding in which case I apologize, Panto being prominent in both is a bit of a difficult thing to interpret.

I don't disagree but for most of Stormblood and Heavensward you had the piercing meta, and thus usually ran no caster DPS at all. Heavensward and Stormblood, of course, being the two expansions I mean when I say that casters vanished from meta teams entirely up until late Stormblood where Summoner started to attain some popularity. So really most didn't cope with it and did fine because you just didn't take a casting dps in the first place.

Now re: cast times) that's fair enough, and in the world we're in where phys range and magic range aren't vying for the same spot I agree. In lieu of that, more complex rotations is a good substitute. I'll always miss StB MCH.

Re: raise) I know and I hate it as well, I don't think that would stop SE from officiating it and then pretending all is well.

Re: endwalker) nope. Throughout most of HW and StB the piercing meta was in full effect and there was no good reason to take a caster who had to suffer cast times when you could roll deep with piercing drg, mch and brd and bouncing crit buffs back and forth across each other (brd, drg and sch). It was supremely busted and very hard to keep up with for the non phys ranged, although Summoner eventually did.

What I will add though is I don't want casters to lose casting any more than you want phys ranged to have it. I'm not advocating for any of that, however I am saying that EW fight design tends to pack tons of movement mechanics back to back with little regard for any caster not named SMN. Not every mechanic is terrible but standouts off the top of my head are p7s's marathoning back and forth, p4s's pinax, p8s' fourfold flames (especially how pugs do it), TOP's well, all of p1 sucks for anyone with cast times (hell even SAM has issues at points).

I defer to Rychu for Anabeisos struggles since I haven't had the pleasure of casting this tier, although I can imagine how bad superchain 1 and cal 2 screw RDM over in specific.

[Valence]

Let me start on the last bit: "in TOP." The latest Ultimate released in Endwalker based on Stormblood raids. Unless you really are just talking about pre-ShB raiding in which case I apologize, Panto being prominent in both is a bit of a difficult thing to interpret.


I don't disagree but for most of Stormblood and Heavensward you had the piercing meta, and thus usually ran no caster DPS at all. Heavensward and Stormblood, of course, being the two expansions I mean when I say that casters vanished from meta teams entirely up until late Stormblood where Summoner started to attain some popularity. So really most didn't cope with it and did fine because you just didn't take a casting dps in the first place.

Now re: cast times) that's fair enough, and in the world we're in where phys range and magic range aren't vying for the same spot I agree. In lieu of that, more complex rotations is a good substitute. I'll always miss StB MCH.

Re: raise) I know and I hate it as well, I don't think that would stop SE from officiating it and then pretending all is well.

Re: endwalker) nope. Throughout most of HW and StB the piercing meta was in full effect and there was no good reason to take a caster who had to suffer cast times when you could roll deep with piercing drg, mch and brd and bouncing crit buffs back and forth across each other (brd, drg and sch). It was supremely busted and very hard to keep up with for the non phys ranged, although Summoner eventually did.

What I will add though is I don't want casters to lose casting any more than you want phys ranged to have it. I'm not advocating for any of that, however I am saying that EW fight design tends to pack tons of movement mechanics back to back with little regard for any caster not named SMN. Not every mechanic is terrible but standouts off the top of my head are p7s's marathoning back and forth, p4s's pinax, p8s' fourfold flames (especially how pugs do it), TOP's well, all of p1 sucks for anyone with cast times (hell even SAM has issues at points).

I defer to Rychu for Anabeisos struggles since I haven't had the pleasure of casting this tier, although I can imagine how bad superchain 1 and cal 2 screw RDM over in specific.

Far enough for the piercing meta, I had kept in mind SMN topping charts (even in HW) but I suppose it was not a regular happenstance.

I do play rphys and even I find that everything those days is always about players running all around all the time, and more more and more with pixel perfect invisible telegraphs and bullshit stuff like Bonds 3. I'd perhaps suggest that it's not that we have bigger bursts of mobility, but it's that comparatively it feels to me like we're constantly asked to do it with pinpoint accuracy everywhere combined with body checks tied to it everywhere, where in the past we had longer times where we could stand still and take a breath.

Sometimes I do feel that the fight design of the game encounters, which is all about moving around, often conflicts with casting uptime. I'm obviously biased as a rphys player, but it makes me literally die inside how it makes the game unfun. I'd feel that casters would thrive a lot more into something that actually looks more to a RPG than a DDR offshoot. Don't hate me.

[Semirhage]

"Let's add a bunch of instant casts to casters so they can move around in our cardio-heavy constant movement modern fight design. Now that they're more mobile let's make sure their damage remains lower relative to the melee (except BLM, lol)"
"Let's delete a bunch of positionals, add more stacks to True North, add a TN effect to a Dragoon ability, and blow up boss hitboxes so melee never have to lose uptime. Oh, and if they would ever lose uptime due to mechanics vomit, we'll just make the boss untargetable so everyone loses damage. Now let's buff the crap out of their damage so they do way more than the ranged, because this makes sense".

It's the naked double standard. All of this faff about "damage is balanced intra-role" is a fat load of bull. It wasn't like this in Shadowbringers. But now that the melee are doing way more than everyone else, *suddenly* you'll hear all the melee mains claim damage "should" be balanced this way for...comp reasons or something, because that second slot should always be melee.

[kayll]

"Let's add a bunch of instant casts to casters so they can move around in our cardio-heavy constant movement modern fight design. Now that they're more mobile let's make sure their damage remains lower relative to the melee (except BLM, lol)"
"Let's delete a bunch of positionals, add more stacks to True North, add a TN effect to a Dragoon ability, and blow up boss hitboxes so melee never have to lose uptime. Oh, and if they would ever lose uptime due to mechanics vomit, we'll just make the boss untargetable so everyone loses damage. Now let's buff the crap out of their damage so they do way more than the ranged, because this makes sense".

Yeah I don't really get this, I really don't know how anyone can look at all of theses facts and say "Yeah this is how it should be".
The fact that the biggest complaint melee seems to have atm is related to Kaiten being removed is really telling I think, even despite Square rebalancing their abilities to make up for its removal.

Endwalker has massively coddled melee to the point that as a RDM,7.0 has me more scared than excited for how the gameplay develops further, RDM and BLM being given the SMN treatment, or just more of the same neglt.ec

[Rychu]

Endwalker has massively coddled melee to the point that as a RDM,7.0 has me more scared than excited for how the gameplay develops further, RDM and BLM being given the SMN treatment, or just more of the same neglt.ec

Ehhhhh dont worry about it mate, we'll get what RDM's always wanted in 7.0 I promise. another finisher after resolution further fucking up the burst window, a shield mitigation that can be put on anyone but ourselves, and verfire and stone II that function exactly the same but with 20 more potency....

[Deo14]

The fact that the biggest complaint melee seems to have atm is related to Kaiten being removed is really telling I think, even despite Square rebalancing their abilities to make up for its removal.

They rebalanced SAM to deal more damage with basic GCDs and less with the big attacks, which is contradictory to the class fantasy. If they simply wanted to remove Kaiten, they would need to do just handful of potency changes, but they did about 21 of those changes in single patch. Midare deals just like 2.5x as much as regular GCD. Most importantly, now on average every 5th skill you use is Shinten. Imagine that RDM has a bland, uninteresting oGCD, and each spell builds gauge that is pretty much used only for this skill, and the gauge generation is so high that you spend 20% of all actions on using this boring spell. This is the state of SAM.

I understand that casters, and especially RDM really feels like devs' unwanted child, but that doesn't mean that we as players should point fingers and antagonize each other. I really don't think that any sensible players asked for SMN to become pranged, for RDM to be taxed to oblivion for a verraise, which is barely any better than single use ress, or any of the questionable changes EW brought.

[Lyth]

...

Not necessarily. I've repeatedly argued that all DPS jobs should have similar rDPS values, and I'd be happy if they put everyone on a level playing field next expansion.

Job 'difficulty' is a very personal, subjective experience. You're of course naturally going to argue that casters are 'more difficult' to play than any other subrole, and thus should be rewarded with higher damage numbers and triple ranged comps at baseline. But is that perceived 'difficulty' on casters a function of having a protracted progression experience in P10S? Are there elements of that 'difficulty' that could be softened through repeated practice and self-improvement on a personal level?

The other issue is when you take that personal sense of 'superior difficulty' and force that view on to others, it actually makes the gameplay experience worse across the board for the community. I remember that you didn't like WHM being treated as the 'easy' healer by the community very much. Why propagate that experience on to others? All subroles should be in a place of mutual respect. Rather than finding reasons to justify discrepancies between subroles, we really should be finding ways to justify eliminating them.

If you shrunk boss hitbox sizes, had more boss movement, and even had mechanics to physically force you off the boss, a lot of melee would enjoy that. Forced downtime is a skill differentiator, because then you see melee who are good at using movement actions really excel over everyone else. It's actually funny that Criterion of all things does this better than the raid tier.

Likewise, physical ranged would probably have no objection to taking on additional skill checks if it means doing the same rDPS as melee. You want them to do double the CPM of casters? Juggle double the procs? Intermittent casts in the form of charged sniper shots? Ranged positionals? Actions that cannot be executed at proximity? Some of the most talented players I've met have actually been physical ranged, so I have no doubt they'll rise to the occasion, regardless of what you throw at them.

I also think that these constant complaints around 'difficulty' are what's at the center for eliminating skill checks on every role. When you complain about a 'cardio-heavy' movement fight design that's hard on casters, they turn around and start removing your cast bars. Resource management too difficult? They might as well remove MP next expansion. Random number generators holding you back? No problem, all your big hits are now guaranteed Crit/DH. Every time you complain, you think they're going to buff your job so that you can clear more fights. Every time you complain, they remove skill checks from everyone. Take pride in your skill checks. Demand more.