A question for SCH mains and enjoyers

[vetch]

IIRC overheal is also weighted at 0.5 threat per HP of Overheal (in contrast to damage's 1:1) so you'd actually have needed 40000 effective potency of overheal to rip threat, Cure3's 600, on 8 people, would be 4800, halve that (cos it's overheal) and you have 2400. So you could, I guess, cast 8 Cure 3's (20s, at 2.50 GCD), on a full team of 8 players, generate the required 20000 threat (and run yourself completely out of mana), and then have the tank... steal the threat back from you like 5 seconds later with their freshly reset Provoke? I guess that means that, while hard to time, it's technically possible for a healer to do this at just the right timing to snapshot a tankbuster onto themselves instead of the tank.

This nonzero chance, which can only occur due to the healer player being really reckless with their MP (to the point where no sane player would think to do it), clearly justifies the tanks having a rotation instead of one button spam like us /s
Hell, they even get to have at least 3 buttons to play with in AOE, we're stuck with one (well, two if you're SGE I guess) =(

But wait! Don't forget to add in the additional potency from blowing Plenary and Presence of Mind and clipping Assize, Bene, Benis, and Tetra between those boosted, sped-up Cure 3s.

You can throw away half a minute of tank DPS and waste every tool in your healkit for one sweet, sweet moment of 'WTF just happened???' comedy.

[Post]

Used to be able to just provoke the boss as a CNJ

[Renathras]

...

Other than me, everyone else who regularly posts here is in total agreement on the state of healers in the game and what they find fun/unfun about them.

Go to the Tank forum and you'll see a bunch of disgruntled people, but you also see a lot of different positions. For example, someone started a thread about whether or not everyone hates PLD now, and there were a lot of people saying they were neutral on it and some saying they loved it. Make a post about any of the four healer Jobs here and see who, other than me, will say that they don't hate it/dislike it.

Likewise, you can see similar discussions on DRK and WAR there. Someone will post they're boring and others will post how they love them, some will begone DRK's state while others will talk about how it has a strong mitigation kit or a different enough playstyle they enjoy, etc.

In the DPS forum, you do see some people say that Kaiten being removed wasn't a bad thing, you do see some people say SMN's a decent design and they enjoy it, you see people both asking for more positionals for Melee and some asking for less. From individual Jobs to overall role mechanics, there's a lot more disagreement and robust debate.

You don't see that diversity of view here.

You guys differ over pretty minor details, but you're all in agreement on your overall positions. Not one of you DOESN'T want Healers to have more damage buttons. At best, a few of you make exception specifically for AST to have more buffs instead. Not one of you will say you like current healers or are alright with them. I'm really the only person who consistently points out the differences in their playstyles. There are also far fewer people posting here than in the Tank or DPS forums, and the views are much more concentrated.

If I didn't post here, you guys' disagreement would be akin to members within a close political coalition disagreeing about whether a 0.5% tax increase goes too far or doesn't go too far enough. (That's a Futurama reference: "Jack Johnson vs John Jackson" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll3iyvbsRDM , or for the specific quote without context: "your 3c titanium tax doesn't go too far enough" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUMdCV-Z7kk )

'Bad faith' means dishonesty, not simply being mistaken.

Fair. Though I don't think it's a mistake. Not only are the other role forums here more diverse in their views, Reddit is more diverse as well.

It's likely not a mistake, he has been calling the healer forums an echo chamber for a very long time now,

Because I believe it's true.

As noted above with the Futurama reference, your disagreements are generally pretty insignificant, and tend to be quibbling over details in various Job proposals. Again, find someone here other than me that likes the current Healers. One other person who is a common poster.

What's that, there are none?

You'll say it's because healer design is so bad, yet I can find people on Reddit to say they like current Healer design. That seems to indicate this place is more of an echo chamber.

Except you very regularly do make bad faith posts that are posted with an ulterior motive.

You BELIEVING (wanting to) that I make bad faith posts and have ulterior motives is not me actually making bad faith posts and having ulterior motives. You almost always ascribe an ulterior motive to any thread I make, no matter how many times you've been proven wrong. You want it to be true so badly, you believe it's true no matter what.

My definition of bad faith here is you going into another forum to try to get them to agree with your position by making a non-serious proposal that everyone knew was non-serious from the jump. "disagreeing with me" isn't why I said that post of yours was in bad faith. The irony being, the way you worded that post would have been supporting my position - well a caricature of it, but the point is, it wouldn't have been "disagreeing with me", thus "disagreeing with me" clearly cannot be my definition of bad faith. This is just you - yet again - trying to take every opportunity to attack me.

Some people hold mistaken beliefs their entire lives. It doesn't become arguing in bad faith just because you've presented evidence for your argument and the person hasn't been convinced.

I know we disagree about basically everything...but bless you, man.

Hell, they even get to have at least 3 buttons to play with in AOE, we're stuck with one (well, two if you're SGE I guess) =(

3 if you're WHM. (4 if you count Solace and Rapture separately; 5 if you also count Assize.)

.

Also, for anyone interested, there's a thread about this - agro management - going on in the Tank forum right now:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/486917-Enmity-Management-Do-we-want-it-back

[Aravell]

Because I believe it's true.

As noted above with the Futurama reference, your disagreements are generally pretty insignificant, and tend to be quibbling over details in various Job proposals. Again, find someone here other than me that likes the current Healers. One other person who is a common poster.

What's that, there are none?

You'll say it's because healer design is so bad, yet I can find people on Reddit to say they like current Healer design. That seems to indicate this place is more of an echo chamber.

So you're basically admitting that you're arguing in bad faith. The definition of echo chamber is "an environment in which a person encounters only beliefs or opinions that coincide with their own, so that their existing views are reinforced and alternative ideas are not considered". I see plenty of alternative ideas being discussed around, as do you, that makes these forums objectively not an echo chamber. You holding that position continuously while it can be disproved shows that you are in fact, engaging in bad faith in this instance. In fact, your very existence here contradicts your claim that the healer forums is an echo chamber.

It's also strange that you tend to lump everyone into an amorphous blob of "wants damage buttons" even when we place importance on different things. I myself care more about the homogenisation of the healing portion of the kits along with the heavy redundancies and the lack of any sort of cost for strong abilities in our kit. But sure, go off about how I only care about damage buttons.

[Supersnow845]

So you're basically admitting that you're arguing in bad faith. The definition of echo chamber is "an environment in which a person encounters only beliefs or opinions that coincide with their own, so that their existing views are reinforced and alternative ideas are not considered". I see plenty of alternative ideas being discussed around, as do you, that makes these forums objectively not an echo chamber. You holding that position continuously while it can be disproved shows that you are in fact, engaging in bad faith in this instance. In fact, your very existence here contradicts your claim that the healer forums is an echo chamber.

It's also strange that you tend to lump everyone into an amorphous blob of "wants damage buttons" even when we place importance on different things. I myself care more about the homogenisation of the healing portion of the kits along with the heavy redundancies and the lack of any sort of cost for strong abilities in our kit. But sure, go off about how I only care about damage buttons.

People complain that skills like synestry and dissipation are badly designed when in reality it’s the fact that we now have skills like kerachole and pneuma which just straight up have no downsides and it’s never wrong to press them

Skills should have downsides, you shouldn’t have 5 options and none of them being wrong

[Semirhage]

People think that classes designed to spend most of their time spamming one button as their skill ceiling is boring? And want more to do with their downtime?

What. A crazy. Opinion. Only a true insular echo chamber could possibly reinforce. Such an outlandish. Idea.

[Supersnow845]

Such a good and popular idea we should totally make every healer have it with no alternative choice whatsoever

[Renathras]

So you're basically admitting that you're arguing in bad faith.

No, I'm not.

If I'm not here, then the beliefs and opinions encountered are uniform/close enough to uniform and there's no dissenting view. Again, show me someone else here consistently at odds with the majority of you. Show me what those differences actually are. "alternate ideas" that are all in agreement with each other aren't alternate ideas. If you got a bunch of MAGA people together to discuss plans for border control and one suggested a fence while another suggested putting alligators in the Rio Grande and someone else is suggesting putting the military on the border to turn people away, that's still an echo chamber since no one is arguing against the whole affair, their "differences" are on "how to do this thing we all agree on", not an actual disagreement on the thing in question, and not actual dissent.

Also, that's not me engaging in bad faith.

Something I've noticed here - whenever I accuse someone else of a thing, several of you tend to try your DAMNEDest to accuse me of that same thing, even when it's wrong to do so, as Vetch pointed out. Your extreme reach and insistence on using the same insult instead of something else just to hope it sticks is based on a flawed belief that if you can accuse someone of doing something then this negates their initial accusation of that to someone else. It actually doesn't. It doubly doesn't when said person (me in this case) isn't doing the thing to begin with.

.

As to your second paragraph: I'm pretty sure when we talk about healing tools, homogenization is a constant complaint. Again, I'm the only frequent poster here who says that the Healers AREN'T homogenized.

In before everyone lines up (to prove me wrong) insisting all of a sudden, in conflict with their normal views, that Healers are totally not homogenized... <_<

This place...

People think that classes designed to spend most of their time spamming one button as their skill ceiling is boring? And want more to do with their downtime?

What. A crazy. Opinion. Only a true insular echo chamber could possibly reinforce. Such an outlandish. Idea.

Where did I say it was crazy?

I said it wasn't universal.

Not everyone does. When a place has all but one person doing so, and everyone is pretty consistently attacking that one person, then yes, that would be an echo chamber. ...also probably harassment and definitely bullying and brigading, not that anyone cares...

.

EDIT:

Actually, let's do a simple thought experiment.

If I wasn't here, what would everyone be talking about/disagreeing on?

"A summary of healer issues" - you all agree.
"One button DPS is bad" - you all agree.
"Healers are boring" - you all agree.
"Healers are homogenized" - you all agree.
"Healers need DPS buttons" - you all agree (again, with the caveat that SOME are okay with AST, and just AST, getting some buffs instead, and a lot of that thaw was actually due to me over time...but also you all kinda want another DPS button and more damage when soloing; speaking of...)
"Healers, especially AST, do too little damage when soloing" - you all agree.
"Healers should be rewarded for playing well with a more engaging DPS rotation for downtime" - you all agree.
"Healers shouldn't have simple gameplay" - you all agree.
"Healers should have a high skill ceiling (WHM can have a low floor, but its ceiling also needs to be high)" - you all agree.
"AST cards suck" - you all agree.
"SCH was better in SB" - you all agree.
"Healers in general were better in SB" - you all agree (I'm the only one who will CONSISTENTLY point out WHM was not better and was better in ShB and EW, which a few people seem to have grudgingly come around to admitting, but only with the caveat that "Well, SB WHM was just so bad, anything was better", not that ShB/EW WHM is actually good in its own right in any way.)

What EXACTLY do you disagree on?

You agree on all the major, overarching things.

What MAJOR things do you disagree on? If nothing major, what disagreement is there really, absent my voice?

[Renathras]

The healer threads collectively attacking you renrathos is not an example of an echo chamber,

Note that isn't how I defined an echo chamber, so this is irrelevant.

it just means either your ideas are unpopular or people don’t like reading the silmarillion every time they go onto the forums

More the former than the latter, and more people disagree and are annoyed that one person in this forum isn't going along with them.

The healer threads are plenty diverse in how we want healers fixed

Oh REALLY?

And how are they diverse?

Every solution has to include a higher skill ceiling.
Every solution has to include more damage buttons.
Every solution has to alter the higher ability use of the main spam nuke.
Every solution must maintain the oGCD healing model.

Those don't sound particularly diverse. Multiple flavors of the same thing isn't diversity. Hell, I realize this so well, even though I LIKE current Healers, I still hold the 4 Healers Model as preferable because even if I like all of them, I think differences are good. And I don't just mean in a few buttons or effects or aesthetics, but also in things like skill floors and ceilings, lots vs few DPS buttons, spam vs non-spam, etc. These are all forms of diversity you guys are foreclosed against.

and are generally open to people who can present valid arguments as to why they like current healers,

HAHAHAH!

Sorry, but no. That's laughable. The caveat here is that you define "valid argument" so narrowly, there's no "valid argument" for liking current healers. It's like Ty telling me all the time the way I want to play isn't playing or is garbage and shouldn't be allowed. You can't say you accept valid arguments while constantly dismissing valid arguments as "the silmarillion".

we also don’t shut down arguments unless they are ones in which we have presented evidence as to why the opposing person is wrong

Also laughable.

Though I suppose it depends here on what we call "shut down". But when we're talking about things that are matters of opinion (what is or isn't good for the game, what people personally like, etc), yes, you do shut down arguments unless the person generally agrees with you (collectively). I presented an argument here - an in-depth one - about how Healers and encounter design have changed over time, and another about how Healers changed from SB to EW, including that WHM is less filler nuke spamy now than it was in SB (meaning it is better by the metric of "filler nuke spam is bad"), and yet have been "shut down" (attacked, threads derailed, when I mention it again in other threads, same result, etc) regardless, even though the evidence/data is on my side. Same with metrics of Healers being played, etc.

Again, there are examples of communities that are actually diverse on this topic. Go to Reddit's /ffxiv and post a thread asking people's opinions on Healers. You'll get a lot of people in agreement with those here. But it won't be monolithic like it is here. You will actually get people saying they like them right now. A few people when I posted those threads back a few months ago actually asked for DPS buttons to be REMOVED (that is, they wanted only one, so no DoT upkeep, etc) from Healers.

You may, of course, disagree with those positions, but if they aren't represented at all here, and only one general opinion is, then yes, this would be an echo chamber.

.

Anyway, there's literally no way to convince you guys of this - it's impossible, in general, to convince people in an echo chamber with which they agree that they're in and part of one - so I'm just not going to post any more on it. It's pointless. No evidence or argument I can present will convince you, so there's no point trying, I suppose, and the topic won't lead to anything useful anyway.

[Supersnow845]

And like I’ve said before you still miss what an echo chamber actually means, the majority of healer mains on here share a similar opinion, that does not make it an echo chamber, before the healer threads devolved into renrathos lashes out at every other person on here people came in here all the time and said they like x healer currently for whatever reason (generally it was WHM but eh), sure we might not have agreed with them but it doesn’t mean they weren’t entitled to their opinion and I can attest to the fact that while I still don’t like WHM a lot of those comments warmed to the job a lot more than I originally felt for it

Same as I don’t think semiharge, me, Reiner or any of the other chronic healer forum posters would be surprised to find current healers are more popular (though nobody can provide a shred of evidence they are despite us providing a mountain of circumstantial evidence), on top of this if a survey came out that said 95% of people preferred new healers I’d accept it and move on (I’d probably change roles but I wouldn’t try to stop people playing healer)

And your entire point that all our suggestions are the same is wrong as well, someone like 4 comments ago basically told you “stop putting words in my mouth I disagree with the idea that healing no longer has any downsides” just as I doubt you’ll find many of us on here who disagree with lilies or wouldn’t want more focus on GCD heals

So again I’ll say a group mostly unified in their opinion but is open to others and is willing to change if given contrary evidence is exactly not an echo chamber and at this point it’s not even your ideas it’s just the fact that you are instantly combative with every other poster that makes people dismiss you