A question for SCH mains and enjoyers

[Renathras]

By your own logic your normal assertions that SCH shouldn’t get its DOT’s back

What are you talking about?

My consistent proposal in the 4 Healers Model is to turn SCH back to SB SCH, just with the better modern AI for Eos. Even my own proposal for SCH added another DoT. Do you even read my posts? o.O

Current SGE isn't SCH. Besides, if they were going to change one to work this way...SGE would be the one to do it, since its design and selling point was "heals by doing damage". Flip Addersgall and Addersting, have consuming Addersting generate Addersgall, and bam - you have the thing you're asking for.

Sure, a rework has a chance of total failure, but it also has a chance of success.

It does. But it requires a cost benefit analysis.

The reason given for changing SMN was pretty flimsy (and the same one they're using for DRG now - that it's "complete" and there's nothing to add to it). If there's not a demanding reason for it - and there isn't; many people are fine with it right now - then there's not a great argument to do it.

Again, everyone that got mad at the changes like SMN, PLD, MCH, AST, etc cannot advocate for such changes to SCH with any intellectual consistency. Especially when if they WERE going to change a Healer to work that way, SGE would be the candidate since it's already somewhat designed that way and that was what it was actually billed as being. PvP SGE already more or less works under that paradigm, too. So it wouldn't be a case of rug pulled from under people, since people picked up SGE with that expectation to begin with.

If the healer design philosophy is not a failure, then why is it only the healer role that receives this level of visceral negative feedback at all anywhere?

It's not.

Tanks routinely have a similar level of visceral negative feedback, and if anything, it's worse because they've moved on to the "acceptance" stage already. If you poke the bear in the Tank forum, those feelings resurface and you can get dozens of replies about how Tanking sucks and needs a total rework of the role. As they will tell you, they've reached the stoic stage of complaining for so long that they're worn out and just kinda don't bother anymore unless someone specifically asks them to. If anything, the Tanking role, to Tank players, is in even worse shape than the Healer role. The only think they'll tell you is that Healers have even more bland/homogenized look to them, but they think that everything that makes Tanks...well, TANKS, has been removed from the role and they're just "Blue DPS" and they hate it.

It is interesting that they take the opposite approach to you guys and their approach is the Tank equivalent to mine. They don't want more DPS or Damage leaning to their Jobs. They want more Tanking, defined by them as more active mitigation, more agro management, more boss positioning, and more add management. They're frustrated they are basically crappier DPS that hits the boss from the front, occasionally does a swap with the other Tank, and occasionally throw up random defensives (since mechanics seldom require specific ones used at specific times). This would be equivalent to Healers asking for encounters to need more healing.

And if you want to mention specific Jobs, there are plenty of cases there, too.

Know what the biggest one is? SMN, where the negative reaction is off the charts. Recall in your survey SMN got the worst marks of literally any Job in the game, including all the Healers. That should tell you why such a rework isn't such a great idea, since our latest example of a total rework in design and philosophy like you describe ended up being extremely divisive and highly alienating. (PLD's rework was to its rotation, but not to the Job wholesale; the defensives are largely the same and the core 1-2-3-A-A-A is also still the same, making it a major rework but not a complete one.)

...

I thought it was different than Aetherpact? Been too long, I guess.

Maybe. I was one of the ones that said decouple them, I think, and it WASN'T because I wanted AF to be ED only. Seriously, why even HAVE AF/ED at that point? At that point, it'd make more sense to just remove Aetherflow and Energy Drain. What's probably the biggest complaint about SMN's rotation (from people that don't want it "harder" or "old SMN back")? It's that Energy Drain/Bane is just tacked on and uninteresting, and people think it would make more sense for Ruin 4 to just have a 60 sec CD and call it a day. It's extra buttons for no good reason that are kind of stupid. Aetherflow only spent on ED would have no reason to exist. It would make more sense, at that point, to remove Aetherflow (and Energy Drain) and just make it all work on Faerie Gauge. (Though I don't know why I'm arguing this point, it's never going to happen and I think we both know it).

-AST is a Healer, though its primary gauge is buff related. You can say those buffs relate to damage, but as people constantly say, they preferred when the buffs WEREN'T that, so I don't think that's a solid position. WAR/DRK/GNB aren't Healers. As someone said in that thread Ty posted in the Tank section, the difference is that Tanks' job is related to damage (damage builds agro, and AT LEAST IN THEORY, a Tank's job is building agro). While it's true they could just make abilities that generate agro, they did that before and the playerbase just did weird things. Besides, there is a class that has "damage turns into healing". It's called SGE.

-How is it that moving ED to Faerie Gauge doesn't solve the issue, but moving everything else to Faerie Gauge does? That makes no sense. And the thing you say is why it doesn't work...is literally what SGE does, and it works. And my suggestion - which as I recall you were okay with - was making Aetherpact a mini-Lustrate so that the balance was still there between "ED or healing". Again, what is the point of ED even existing in your proposal? It's just MORE CLUNK (the thing we need less of with SCH, not more) to give SCH a more damage focus. It doesn't solve the issue. ED currently only exists because people complain if they have an AF when it's time to refresh AF and so wanted something to spend it on. That was literally the reason stated by the community, collective, to demand it be re-added in ShB. So if it's THE ONLY thing AF is for, then it has no purpose, and AF has no purpose. "Generates Faerie Gauge" is just dumb, since you could just have the AF button...do that...and cut out the ED middle-man. There's no case that AF for only ED makes sense to have.

-As I pointed out in the Healers Then and Now thread, WHM in ShB was more involved, in terms of DPS rotation, than WHM in SB. SB WHM was the dumbed down one. ShB WHM was actually a step up in complexity. Your "quite a banger of a job" is literally current WHM with Aero 3. That's the only difference. 2.5 Aero 3s per min and otherwise identical to what it is now. You could give it a second Misery (with lower potency) on a 24 sec CD and it would be mechanically identical. I'm not sure how that would make it somehow significantly better...or even different.

Having all of SCH's aetherflow be damage oGCDs would be boring. Having all of AST's cards be vanilla damage buffs is boring now. Choosing between healing and damage, judging the situation and guessing how few defensive aetherflow you can get away with, is one of the few things that makes SCH more fun than other healers, just as managing the RNG used to make AST more fun.

Taking choices away so people don't have to think, asking less and less of players, cutting holes in the jobs so bad players can't make wrong decisions in the first place, it is BORING. It's aiming at mediocrity. It's more of the same bad design philosophy that has been wrecking healers for five years. And bad players will still find ways to be bad. All you've done is amputate mid-level gameplay by taking away the soft-skills that mid-level players work to master.

While I don't...entirely...agree with you, I still kind of agree with you on this in a way. ED only AF is just pointless. It doesn't fix anything at all, and just seems to be a way coopt SCH into being more damage focused for no good reason other than wanting it to be more damage focused SOMEhow. And it does so in the worst way possible, since the way it does so is by actually dumbing it down, not making it more complex or interesting.

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There may be SCH changes coming at some point. I suspect it won't be to make AF ED only. I'm not sure what they would do, but given CBU3's track record - even if we assume it will be one of their successes - it's pretty unlikely "AF for ED only" is going to be on that list of changes. It would probably be various ways of making SCH more like SGE and reducing various bits of clunk or anti-synergies.

WHM only didn’t get a lot of criticism in ShB because the SB lily system was so bad that even removing it with no change would have been an improvement, it says a lot that the only positive change healers have gotten in the last 6 years was reworking a system that was so bad the meta thing to do was just hide the system and never interact with it

There have been cases in the game's history where they kind of accidentally stumbled onto things that "just work" even though they probably didn't intend it that way initially. ShB WHM is one such case. Another was pre-EW SMN. There's no way that anyone would design that monstrosity of 4 overlapping classes in one that somehow meshed together by chance. But it...worked.

ShB WHM wasn't well received because SB WHM was so bad. ShB WHM was well received because it was good in its own right.

[Supersnow845]

No rentharas I don’t read your posts because I don’t have 5 hours to dedicate to reading the forums every time you reply to me and every other person for the last 5 pages

[Renathras]

No rentharas I don’t read your posts because I don’t have 5 hours to dedicate to reading the forums every time you reply to me and every other person for the last 5 pages

Then maybe you shouldn't reply to my posts, nor accuse me of saying things that not only do I not say, but I say the opposite of. In fact, you can't know what I'm saying if you don't read my posts, now can you? So why did you think it was a good idea to say I've advocated for something you've never once seen me advocate for since you haven't read any post of mine where I did any advocating?

[Supersnow845]

Then maybe you shouldn't reply to my posts, nor accuse me of saying things that not only do I not say, but I say the opposite of. In fact, you can't know what I'm saying if you don't read my posts, now can you? So why did you think it was a good idea to say I've advocated for something you've never once seen me advocate for since you haven't read any post of mine where I did any advocating?

We have had this discussion multiple times before you descend into text walls that you do not like SCH as a DOT mage, if you have rescinded that position then maybe let people know in a non text wall because I know I’m not the only person who virtually ignores what you type other than to use you as an example of one of the few people on this forum who is strangely adamant that there is not a massive problem with healers

[Renathras]

We have had this discussion multiple times before you descend into text walls that you do not like SCH as a DOT mage, if you have rescinded that position then maybe let people know in a non text wall because I know I’m not the only person who virtually ignores what you type other than to use you as an example of one of the few people on this forum who is strangely adamant that there is not a massive problem with healers

No, we haven't.

Seriously, SOMEONE here step up for once and back me up on this so we can move on.

I've said before - many many MANY times that I dislike DoTs unless they're specifically something a Job is designed around and that interact heavily with its kit (not just Fester, I mean things like generating resources - one part of my proposal was Miasma ticks generating Faerie Gauge), in which case I am either neutral towards them or CAN mildly accept them. I've said that.

I've never said that SCH should have all its DoTs removed.

And my most frequently stated position for SCH is some variation of "Turn SCH back into its SB form + Pet AI fixes + Expedient". In my "4 Healers Model", that's my proposal for SCH. In my "Modest Proposal" thread for SCH, it re-added Miasma as an additional DoT.

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So yeah, maybe you should read people's posts more. And if you aren't going to, maybe you shouldn't accuse them of saying things you don't even know if they said, because you didn't read their posts to even know if they MIGHT have said them.

I've been RIDICULOUSLY consistent on the point that my solution for Healers would be to more or less revert SCH to its SB kit with just a few mechanics/clunk smoothing changes that we've gotten since then. If you didn't know this, you shouldn't have spouted off.

(And this isn't a wall of text; read the Silmarillion sometime.)

[Supersnow845]

Look if you truly think that I’ll take the L on that (though I have distinct memories of arguing with you about SCH) but I won’t change my opinion that if you reply to me with a wall of text longer than the text limit I’m not gonna reply to it (this includes only short replies to me in a larger wall of text)

[Renathras]

My replies to you:

What are you talking about?

My consistent proposal in the 4 Healers Model is to turn SCH back to SB SCH, just with the better modern AI for Eos. Even my own proposal for SCH added another DoT. Do you even read my posts? o.O

Current SGE isn't SCH. Besides, if they were going to change one to work this way...SGE would be the one to do it, since its design and selling point was "heals by doing damage". Flip Addersgall and Addersting, have consuming Addersting generate Addersgall, and bam - you have the thing you're asking for.

+

There have been cases in the game's history where they kind of accidentally stumbled onto things that "just work" even though they probably didn't intend it that way initially. ShB WHM is one such case. Another was pre-EW SMN. There's no way that anyone would design that monstrosity of 4 overlapping classes in one that somehow meshed together by chance. But it...worked.

ShB WHM wasn't well received because SB WHM was so bad. ShB WHM was well received because it was good in its own right.

Note that this post fits in one post, meaning this is well within the text limit.

If you don't want me to make conglomerate posts, convince the admins here to remove or make more lax the daily limit. I post in General and the DPS and Tank threads some. While I'll go days (or weeks) without posting, 20 within a day is pretty highly limiting, hence it forces people to make edits past the text limit (which itself is stupidly small; compare the average conversation here to r/ffxivdiscussion...)

[Supersnow845]

I’m talking about threads way older than this one in terms of us disagreeing

But sure amalgamate thread replies, I’m not gonna reply to them, I’ll stick to the daily post limit, I don’t really care

[Sebazy]

I’m talking about threads way older than this one in terms of us disagreeing

But sure amalgamate thread replies, I’m not gonna reply to them, I’ll stick to the daily post limit, I don’t really care

In fairness, of all the people, I'll defend Rene on this one. The post length is wild at times but aye, rolling back SCH is part of the regular suggestion. You don't have to personally like something to be able to put it forward as a suggestion for the greater good of the game.

I'd actually take the suggestion one step further and add elements of SCH/SMN from ARR/HW, namely it's heavier emphasis on Dots making Broils percentages a lesser overall percentage of it's DPS. Achieving this with the likes of Bane and Fester is a possible avenue and IMO the less pressure you can put on a healer to spend the as many GCDs as possible pressing the same button, the better.

[Supersnow845]

Okay if that’s truly the case then that’s my bad, I made the mistake and I’ll own that mistake

I am still not going to read super long length posts