7.0 copium has got to stop

[Renathras]

So this is where the doomium thread spawned from. Interesting.

Yeah?

I literally linked to this thread at the same time I posted that.

You're trying to act like there's some grand conspiracy to further your incessant (and irrelevant) argument that no one is positive about the game, but as I told you there several times (perhaps if you had bothered reading it instead of declaring an intent to be ignorant...), and was completely open about, that thread wasn't about positivity, it was open mockery of doomsaying.

There's a lot of specific feedback and discussion around what needs to be done with healer job design on the healer subforum, which is really good. I think a big part of the problem is in the consensus. There was a discussion on this earlier, in fact.

Yeah, the Healer subforum is a bit of an echo chamber (...more than a bit, actually...), but we've even been able to find points of agreement there. There's a thread something like "A modest proposal" with SCH changes that most people found they could agree on. While there's plenty of disagreement, and the big issue really is consensus, there's some general broad brush agreement that encounters are too heavily scripted, too mitigation focused, and not designed to work well with Healer toolkits as they presently exist. After that, it's a lot of disagreement. It's why my own personal proposal (the one I call "the 4 Healers model") is to kind of gear the different Jobs towards each of the different directions people seem to want, that way, everyone has something they like.

...needless to say, there's not even consensus on that. So you get the point.

The healer role has a problem that neither of the others do: a subset of players who want there to never ever be a skill ceiling above ankle-height. Not *floor*. Ceiling.

No, it doesn't. This is your caricature you trot out to attack disagreement.

Which, btw, only contributes to a lack of ability to develop consensus.

[Koros]

The healer role has a problem that neither of the others do: a subset of players who want there to never ever be a skill ceiling above ankle-height. Not *floor*. Ceiling.

Well they are ankle-height IRL and in-game.

[Supersnow845]

This is correct. You can communicate clearly and effectively, but if your ideas are unpopular, they are unlikely to end up being implemented. You have to be persuasive as well.

Which (as has been discussed ad nauseam on every piece of media related to 14) there is no evidence that a significant base exists who actually like modern healers for their actual design

The forums hate them, shitpostxiv hates them, ffxivdiscussion hates them, even mainsub outside of a few overplayed “blood for the blood lily” jokes hates them, Job satisfaction surveys hate them

Every piece of evidence we have shows that people overwhelmingly hate them, at best there is a measure of people who like support roles who play them because 14 has nothing even remotely close (even ignoring that squares decisions on healers and phys ranged is what destroyed support) to support but there is basically nobody who comes out and says “healer design is good and well designed”

[MintnHoney]

but there is basically nobody who comes out and says “healer design is good and well designed”

Except for Renathras on Tuesdays-Thursdays, and sometimes Fridays if he feels backed into a corner when arguing in the healer forums, that one player who I can't really remember that wants the jobs to stay the way they are because they are a disabled player who needs simple jobs to be able to play (fair enough), and that one Elezen guy who will apparently never run out of content, I can't think of many who have said this even once upon a time, either.

[Jojoya]

Every piece of evidence we have shows that people overwhelmingly hate them, at best there is a measure of people who like support roles who play them because 14 has nothing even remotely close (even ignoring that squares decisions on healers and phys ranged is what destroyed support) to support but there is basically nobody who comes out and says “healer design is good and well designed”

Personally, I don't think SE can make any real progress on healer design until they strip back many of the healing and mitigation tools they've given other roles, and better balance the importance of each role in content in general. Every role should need both of the other roles doing their jobs to clear content synced.

If SE's concern is "if we balance role importance and a healer dies there's no recovery while a party can recover if a tank or DPS dies because a healer can Raise them", giving other roles more healing and mitigation utility isn't the answer. The answer is to give the other roles an instant cast Raise with a 10 minute recharge timer or something similar - an "oh crap button" to get the healer up if needed without being so convenient it can be used for any death. That takes nothing away from the healer role as it's only useful after death occurs, not in helping to prevent death.

I don't get frustrated as a healer because I'm mostly playing with those who are skill challenged. I'm usually busy healing (even when tanking sometimes) so I'm not spending much time as green DPS. But I do empathize with those who are playing with the skilled players and get frustrated that being a healer doesn't feel more meaningful and engaging.

[TheNight]

Which (as has been discussed ad nauseam on every piece of media related to 14) there is no evidence that a significant base exists who actually like modern healers for their actual design

The forums hate them, shitpostxiv hates them, ffxivdiscussion hates them, even mainsub outside of a few overplayed “blood for the blood lily” jokes hates them, Job satisfaction surveys hate them

Every piece of evidence we have shows that people overwhelmingly hate them, at best there is a measure of people who like support roles who play them because 14 has nothing even remotely close (even ignoring that squares decisions on healers and phys ranged is what destroyed support) to support but there is basically nobody who comes out and says “healer design is good and well designed”

For the simps, they will always accuse others of presenting no data, yet will unabashedly claim they're in the majority with no data.

Such as:

EW knocked it out of the park for the large majority of the playerbase. What's represented here on the forums is the most minuscule minority of the community, and one always prone to complaining about anything. Take a trip around YouTube, or even Reddit (of all places), and for every one person you find here, you'll find dozens of unique people (not the same few posting over and over again) praising EW and celebrating the current state of FFXIV.

Again, EW may have somehow "spent" whatever faith you have for whatever reason, but far and away the general reaction is the complete opposite. The only thing EW has been consistently is praised by most people. Seriously, get out of the pathetic echo chamber of negativity that is this forum and poke around practically any other place on the internet related to FFXIV, and you'll see how overwhelmingly this place does not reflect the general reality.

Except, of course, that they're not. FC's are filled, queues pop even for odd raids at all hours of the day. It is indeed a vocal minority of pathetically bitter people here on the forums that are complaining because they can't stand that other people are having fun playing the game. This forum was less of a cesspool when a certain few people took some time off (ironically, for all they claim to hate the game, they...apparently resubbed and are actively playing again...).

Do I think the number of people who are utterly and absolutely bitter and do nothing but complain and badmouth the game on this forum are the absurdly minuscule minority? Absolutely.

Heck, the echo chamber itself admits it. They love to claim that there are evidently dozens upon dozens of reddits and other sites on the internet filled with overwhelming fanboys who accept no negative commentary, and how this forum is the only place in existence where you can say negative things. And when you look through the threads, it is in fact the same select people posting over and over again in thread after thread. Yet somehow, they believe they magically outnumber that massive number of other sites with ultra-fanboys.

Or just check out YT. On just one video there, you'll probably find more unique people posting about how much they're enjoying EW and how good they think it is than you'll find on this entire forum. That's not "baseless" - it's reality. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less real.

Also, yes, everything is open to criticism. But there's a difference between actual criticism and people just mindlessly bashing anything and everything, personally attacking the dev team, and doing the same to anyone who dare points out they actually enjoy something. That's not criticism - that's incredible immaturity doing nothing productive whatsoever, and a major flag that it's time to move on to something else.



Where is your data on "most people don't like IS"? Right - it doesn't exist. And it's absolutely possible that they make mistakes. But when people just whine and attack the devs for literally everything, and then you juxtapose that against the reality that the game has the highest active playerbase ever this expansion, it's obvious such sentiments aren't anywhere near the norm, and it contributes nothing useful to anything.

Dear me, I can't quite find the "data" in these posts.

[Striker44]

For the simps, they will always accuse others of presenting no data, yet will unabashedly claim they're in the majority with no data.

I've only seen "majority" claims by the minuscule echo chamber here on the forums. The people who point out the error in that never seem to claim that they are the majority instead, simply that none of us on here represent anything meaningful compared to the playerbase at large. When larger claims are made, though, data is inevitably used by those people to support it. Just because some people don't like that the reality cracks the windows of their echo chamber doesn't make it any less real.

[Ivtrix]

I've only seen "majority" claims by the minuscule echo chamber here on the forums. The people who point out the error in that never seem to claim that they are the majority instead, simply that none of us on here represent anything meaningful compared to the playerbase at large. When larger claims are made, though, data is inevitably used by those people to support it. Just because some people don't like that the reality cracks the windows of their echo chamber doesn't make it any less real.

Im fairly convinced you dont really play the game because its not just the forums. Across all social media and ingame chat of people I interact with, everyone agrees healing is not in a good spot.

[Theodric]

I've only seen "majority" claims by the minuscule echo chamber here on the forums. The people who point out the error in that never seem to claim that they are the majority instead, simply that none of us on here represent anything meaningful compared to the playerbase at large. When larger claims are made, though, data is inevitably used by those people to support it. Just because some people don't like that the reality cracks the windows of their echo chamber doesn't make it any less real.

Huh? Practically the entirety of the post history of certain posters consists of little but declaring themselves to be in the 'majority' and any criticism whatsoever towards the game as coming from a 'minority'.

Thankfully, the silent majority of players are having a blast playing the game, having fun, and may not even know these other things exist, let alone find anything meaningful in them. Pray, disregard the bad-faith forum posters who are addicted to the game but so pathetically bitter they can't stand the thought of other people enjoying something.

EW knocked it out of the park for the large majority of the playerbase.

Actually, the overwhelming majority of the playerbase considers EW to be a great story.

Please stop making stuff up to suit your own desires. The scions aren't ideologically homogeneous, but they are immensely popular among the large majority of the playerbase.

From what I recall, it has also been pointed out to you many times that there's no obligation for anyone to lace their every post with 'in my opinion' given that it's rather obvious any given poster is speaking on their behalf first and foremost.

I also remember you declaring that you are not caught up on content as you are 'taking it slow'. Is that still the case? If so, then you're not really speaking from the same position as veteran players or those who actually engage with more than just the MSQ's.

[Supersnow845]

https://www.reddit.com › commentsFFXIV 5.25 Job Satisfaction Survey Results!

https://twitter.com/redditffxiv/stat...58322003939329

https://ffxivcensus.com

Here is also three seperate representations of the problem if you want actual data

Link 1 and link 2, SCH and AST two of the three least popular jobs in ShB after the great healer lobotomisation, the third of those three jobs got completely reworked twice in the intervening time, WHM maintains a level of popularity due to starting at level 1 and actually having a semi popular change implemented between 4.0-5.0, also note that outside of them redoing lily’s WHM was the healer that changed the least between the two, only losing aero 1 and 3, dumping off the old healer role actions and getting a rework on the wonky plenary (which made it a better job)

Link 3 as of the most recent census every other role averages 1 million people with a particular job capped, healers average just over 900,000, so even though you can legit cap a job cure 1 spamming there is still a deficit of roughly 100,000 individual players for the healer role who won’t even interact with them enough to cap them in basic content

Now let’s compare to 3.0

https://ffxivcensus.com/arrhwcompare/

This data is a bit wonky because it doesn’t split SCH with SMN but if we look at this data AST is the most popular of the new jobs in 3.0 and WHM and SCH share high popularity in their role compared to say pugilist, dragoon and warrior

Now I’ll attach the stipulation that most of this data is old, however that is only because newer data doesn’t exist, however no event has occurred in the intervening time that seems likely to have strongly affected these results (the census seems to show that SGE just pulled from the existing pool of shrinking healers, not bringing people to healer)