Wesk Alber's poll on Jobs

[Shurrikhan]

It's honestly crazy to me that the last time they did any surveys for player feedback/impressions was during 1.x when yoshida initially took over and was deciding on a new direction. Post 6.0, when the first major arc of the game finished and we were looking to go in a new direction anyway feels like it would have been the perfect time to take one, so they could take it into consideration for 7.0+ stuff.

Can't betray/disappoint player expectations/preferences/desires that they purposely leave themselves blind to, though, right?

[IceBlueNinja]

I love this as much as people bad mouth sage ofc its the most play job, who cares if it has weaker aoe shields (cause its E diag crit with a zoe =is stronger than a crit alco even if fey illum and disspiate is used because zoe is 20% stonger on heal potency up)and even that is not so serious, HOLOS/physis 2/kera chole is whooping hp regen + migitation/shield which is all sage need and cost 0 mp. On my server of Aether that is very raid heavy it is certainly true SCH is the less played healer and the most heal combo is either whm/sage or ast/sage. If honestly sage had strong aoe shields like sch, am positive sch would not even be played at all.

[Supersnow845]

I love this as much as people bad mouth sage ofc its the most play job, who cares if it has weaker aoe shields (cause its E diag crit with a zoe =is stronger than a crit alco even if fey illum and disspiate is used because zoe is 20% stonger on heal potency up)and even that is not so serious, HOLOS/physis 2/kera chole is whooping hp regen + migitation/shield which is all sage need and cost 0 mp. On my server of Aether that is very raid heavy it is certainly true SCH is the less played healer and the most heal combo is either whm/sage or ast/sage. If honestly sage had strong aoe shields like sch, am positive sch would not even be played at all.

SGE just wins out over SCH because SCH is clunky, SCH still dominates SGE in AOE shields even with the holos changes because of spreadlo and because recitation can force adlo to crit while SGE just kinda hopes that their shields crit, spreadlo on the tank only using protaction is stronger than Zoe e prognosis + holos which is more CD costly for the SGE than it is the SCH and SCH also has the capacity to buff it further with dissipation and fey illumination

SCH also has more utility, totem healing is a godsend in savage, expedient is probably the one true support skill left in the game (though I’d argue curing waltz also fits the bill), eos is better at passive party healing than kardia swapping and chain stagmentation is almost as strong a buff as divination and requires 0 setup

SGE being more popular despite having functionally no upsides over SCH (about the only one is it’s healing is free and it has a very slightly stronger mana economy) is pretty much the same as why WHM is more played than AST despite being objectively worse, and that’s people don’t really love clunky jobs and when all healers feel the same anyway the differences in utility just don’t feel worth it

[IceBlueNinja]

SGE just wins out over SCH because SCH is clunky, SCH still dominates SGE in AOE shields even with the holos changes because of spreadlo and because recitation can force adlo to crit while SGE just kinda hopes that their shields crit, spreadlo on the tank only using protaction is stronger than Zoe e prognosis + holos which is more CD costly for the SGE than it is the SCH and SCH also has the capacity to buff it further with dissipation and fey illumination

SCH also has more utility, totem healing is a godsend in savage, expedient is probably the one true support skill left in the game (though I’d argue curing waltz also fits the bill), eos is better at passive party healing than kardia swapping and chain stagmentation is almost as strong a buff as divination and requires 0 setup

SGE being more popular despite having functionally no upsides over SCH (about the only one is it’s healing is free and it has a very slightly stronger mana economy) is pretty much the same as why WHM is more played than AST despite being objectively worse, and that’s people don’t really love clunky jobs and when all healers feel the same anyway the differences in utility just don’t feel worth it

I didnt say anything about E prog+ zoe at all? I said kera+physis 2 + holos combine is enough migitation + powerful hot in one , E crit Diag is stronger than crit alco since zoe is 50% increase heal and illum and dissipate = only 30% (am talking single shield aspect not aoe ) and many people say anyways who needs shields if the mech wont kill you? its actually good that sages shields are weaker cause it actually makes challenges abit more hetic which is what everyone gripe tends to be that content is too easy outside of ultimate. Also please remember there is pani and hani which can be stacked too if needed and the fact they do a big burst heal similar to the whm bell spell. When sch die they waste tons of dps time having to summon the fairy again and oh boy if aether flow is on cd gl on mana , a dead sage still will regen mana easy since addergall still charges on death and unlike sch sage is awarded their mp back easier . Kardia is alot more useful and powerful if soteria is added increasing kardia proc heals and you cna even add krasis as well that affects all heal actions. Abit off topic the nurse for anyone that knows or play dead by daylight is S tier yet she is the less used killer in the game, its kinda like that with scholar, sometimes its simply not about being powerful in things that will make people play.

[Supersnow845]

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Zoe crit e diagnosis is stronger than critlo+dissiaption+illuminatio……if you can get the diagnosis that you zoe’ed to actually crit, SCH can force it to crit with recitation (and then deploy it for a party wife shield that doesn’t negatively impact the tank’s shield), if it doesn’t crit them SCH’s shield dominates in both single and AOE

Content is too easy because of the way it’s designed and all healers being too strong on the oGCD front, SGE being 5% weaker on most front won’t change the feeling of gameplay

As for haima and panhaima they are pretty much equivalent to seraph who applies a shield for every embrace to her target and allows for 2 charges to consolation, the utility of one of these over the other is debatable (I tend to favour panhaima here but there is no real clear winner), Soteria is just a weaker form of fey union (that can’t be turned on and off at will and heals for less per tick), krasis vs protraction is definitely an either or, since SCH is the only one with deployment I would actually prefer krasis over protraction and I feel SGE would prefer protraction but that’s a very edge case, ET is objectively better than Pepsi

that leaves pneuma on SGE and CS and expedient on SCH, I’ll take out expedients mitigation effect as SCH’s answer to holos (though illumination is also a weaker low level equivalent) then on that front SCH’s utility wins out over pneuma (which is a damn good skill in its own right don’t get me wrong)

On the front of SCH recovering terribly from death I 100% agree it’s legit painful

Other than that SGE isn’t bad in any way it’s Judy if you want any level of expression in your job identity SCH wins in almost every category even it’s only by like 5%

[IceBlueNinja]

Zoe crit e diagnosis is stronger than critlo+dissiaption+illuminatio……if you can get the diagnosis that you zoe’ed to actually crit, SCH can force it to crit with recitation (and then deploy it for a party wife shield that doesn’t negatively impact the tank’s shield), if it doesn’t crit them SCH’s shield dominates in both single and AOE

Content is too easy because of the way it’s designed and all healers being too strong on the oGCD front, SGE being 5% weaker on most front won’t change the feeling of gameplay

As for haima and panhaima they are pretty much equivalent to seraph who applies a shield for every embrace to her target and allows for 2 charges to consolation, the utility of one of these over the other is debatable (I tend to favour panhaima here but there is no real clear winner), Soteria is just a weaker form of fey union (that can’t be turned on and off at will and heals for less per tick), krasis vs protraction is definitely an either or, since SCH is the only one with deployment I would actually prefer krasis over protraction and I feel SGE would prefer protraction but that’s a very edge case, ET is objectively better than Pepsi

that leaves pneuma on SGE and CS and expedient on SCH, I’ll take out expedients mitigation effect as SCH’s answer to holos (though illumination is also a weaker low level equivalent) then on that front SCH’s utility wins out over pneuma (which is a damn good skill in its own right don’t get me wrong)

On the front of SCH recovering terribly from death I 100% agree it’s legit painful

Other than that SGE isn’t bad in any way it’s Judy if you want any level of expression in your job identity SCH wins in almost every category even it’s only by like 5%

Fair enough and dont get me wrong, I hate pepsis its needs a total rework, no matter how some try convince me that its good. I just never ever been in any situation where I need it.

[Renathras]

on which note, SE really ought to let us have a place where we can 'test class at max level' so we can see if we like the gameplay before committing to levelling. Like, someone might like BLM at lower levels cos of it's proc based gameplay, but not like what it becomes at higher levels

For years (basically until EW) I recommended PotD for that. You only need Job stones (so level 30 + the quest for any ARR Jobs, and anything after that unlocks with a Job stone at or above level 30 anyway) and you could hop in on floor 51-60 and try out level 60 gameplay. Which...was relevant in HW and SB. And marginally relevant to get the feel for most Jobs in ShB.

...much less so in EW, though, since so many get some big abilities after level 60 that completely change the rotations. In SB (70 cap) and for at least some Jobs, ShB (level 80 cap), you had much of your core rotation at 60 and after that it was more about more oGCDs or slight shifts in things for optimization by the time you got to the level cap, so PotD still gave you a good feel for the Job overall, and let you kind of "test drive" it.

While that's still...somewhat...true, for a lot of Jobs, it kind of isn't because of how they change at higher levels. Like PLD at 60 vs PLD at 90 was arguably a different Job before 6.3, and still kind of is, though a bit less so.

I don't think HoH, Bozja, or Orthos do that. I really wish they DID, though. Let people in with the only requirement being you must be level 30 or higher and just be on a Job. No reason not to do it since you have to get to 90 or whatever (81?) to unlock it in the first place, meaning if you can unlock it, you should be smart enough to set up bars for a Job and jump in and be vaguely competent.

Which means that all in all, whatever reasons that Ty's survey was considered scuffed and 'not reliable data' applies to this, and vice versa.

I concur. That's kind of my point - the sample seems to determine the outcome with these things pretty strongly. We don't have a good sample yet if they're giving wildly conflicting data. The one exception (for the Healers) is that SGE seems to be popular with both groups.

Though...I mention his guides whenever talking to new players, and I think I've mentioned them here before. So it's a bit odd to me that some people are talking about never having heard of him before. That said, I didn't know he was doing another survey, so didn't vote in it, either.

I love this as much as people bad mouth sage...

There are dedicated SCH fans (I honestly prefer SCH a bit over SGE), SGE is like if you took SCH and worked out all the clunk and kinks. It plays smooth as butter for all the talk of how stale and "identical to SCH" it is, and it's ridiculously powerful. You can play it as a Pure Healer in a lot of content without difficulty. I think SCH is stronger (basically what Supersnow said), but only just for most content (non-Savage/Ultimate), and it's a lot more work to get there. And from an aesthetics perspective, not only do a lot of people like lasers, SGE is all over SCH's toes when it comes to lore. They're both learned healers and SGE is more like a medical doctor (like, lore, it's legit an actual doctor/churgeon + magic field medic) whereas SCH is more an academic + military officer, but they're close enough to most people who like "brainy healer" that many swap to SGE while still getting a comparable/similar enough for them class fantasy.

Though I disagree with you on one thing, Supersnow - SGE also has a pretty big advantage over SCH in mobility (Icarus aside, even its GCD heals are instant cast via Eukrasia), and when you add that to the mana economy and strong oGCDs, it's still pretty strong, and you don't need to manage your pet to get it. (I say this as a person that loves working with Eos, but I can see why others like the no frills/plug and play nature of SGE.)

[Supersnow845]

I won’t deny that, if totem healing won’t achieve your goals SGE runs circles around SCH in terms of mobility

[fulminating]

I won’t deny that, if totem healing won’t achieve your goals SGE runs circles around SCH in terms of mobility

If slide casting isn’t practical, ruin 2 is probably the best option.
As for when slide casting is not an option? Now there’s a question. Maybe during scale mechanics in sophia? Not really prolonged movement there though.

[Renathras]

Mobility is pretty highly prized and SGE can apply barriers as well has have up to 5 GCDs (if in near-melee range for Phlegma) of free movement. And that's not counting Holos and the Hamias.

SCH has to burn Swiftcast if it wants to use Adlo or Succor, and Ruin 2 is a DPS loss while Toxicon is not and Plegma is a DPS gain (and only a marginal loss if you're having to use it outside of Burst, but again, that's if you already went through up to three Toxicons first). oGCD barriers, SCH, despite being the OG Barrier Healer, has only one, Consolation, which is tied to a 2 min CD that has a ~3 sec deadtime "summoning sickness" and only lasts 20 sec per 2 minutes vs SGE being able to do these things whenever if wants to.

Consolation vaguely counters Panhamia, though is more clunky to use, but on top of that SGE also has Eukrasia Prognosis/Diagnosis (which can be Zoe boosted and Krasis boosted on a single target) any time, and Holos as an additional barrier CD. And it's not sacrificing mitigation for this, since it has free use of Kerachole and Holos is a mitigation on par with Expedient.

And that's not counting Icarus, which at a 45 sec CD can be used up to around 12-15 times in a given boss fight.

I think SCH's power is granularity. Holos is a shield and damage mitigation while SCH can apply Expedient and Spreadlo separately. It also has Fey Illumination for an additional slightly more powerful Succor and slightly boosted magic resistance. And though it requires big CDs, Crit Spreadlo is the most powerful barrier system that can be applied in the game, and SCH still has a lot of percent damage mitigations.

So they come out relatively even on the healing/mitigation front, all things considered, but SGE has more mobility and a bit more personal damage (and less party damage), which makes it more reliable for general content when you're not sure how good your party is at their rotations and/or how much you're going to need to run away from someone charging at you with a spread marker.