Class/Job Relationship

[Arkine]

Right now we have 1 class going into 1 job. When they decide to include more job options for said class they could always include new abilities for classes and lock some when switching to jobs.
Let's take Gladiator as an example: right now the class is a pure tank with a lot of tanking abilities so it's natural that Paladin gets access to everything GLA has to offer. If they want to add DRK to GLA all they would need to do is add a new set of abilities to the base class (thus making classes even more varied than they are now) that aren't tank oriented and then ,when switching to DRK, you'd lose all those tanking abilities while keeping the damaging buffs and add more with job exclusive abilities. The opposite for Paladin.

If you're going to create 2 or more unique sets of skills for GLA just to accommodate jobs, then GLA itself is unnecessary. (which its already is!) and jobs should exist on their own.

Also if GLA has access sets of abilities (currently 20 so multiply that) for 3 jobs (thats 60 abilities) that would be super convoluted.

Thats not a bad idea, have classes stop learning abilities after 50, or at least at a lot slower frequency, and make jobs get the rest of the new skills from that point on. I could see that working with a level cap increase if each job learned enough new abilities to really differentiate itself from its base class.

Then why have classes at all if PLD75 would have so many more (I'm thinking 10 more atleast if we get 1 every 5 levels) skills than GLA75 (which will still have the same number it had at 50 and the same cross class abilities since all other classes stopped gaining skills at 50)

Down goes classes!

[Ryans]

Then why have classes at all if PLD75 would have so many more (I'm thinking 10 more atleast if we get 1 every 5 levels) skills than GLA75 (which will still have the same number it had at 50 and the same cross class abilities since all other classes stopped gaining skills at 50)

Down goes classes!

SE isn't going to get rid of classes, I think that much is clear. That reason alone is why I'm not saying get rid of them.

You'll notice I said "at a lot slower frequency" in reference to classes learn skills. If classes are learning abilities at the same rate as jobs, they will have even less differentiation from their jobs then the situation we are in now.

Btw, your math is off on the ratio of class:job in terms of abilities. Unless you are talking about the ratio in the system in my original post, classes and jobs would have 5 moref skills at 75 if classes stopped getting abilities at 50. The difference would be jobs get 10 unique abilities and classes get 10 shared abilities. And again, I said classes should get abilities but at a slower rate than jobs, meaning that they would still get new abilities on the way to 75.

[Alkar]

If you're going to create 2 or more unique sets of skills for GLA just to accommodate jobs, then GLA itself is unnecessary. (which its already is!) and jobs should exist on their own.

Also if GLA has access sets of abilities (currently 20 so multiply that) for 3 jobs (thats 60 abilities) that would be super convoluted.

2 jobs are more than enough for each class and I don't see why it would make GLA useless. GLA would have a lot more abilities at its disposal (and with the ability limit you'd have to pick which ones you want and can't even use all of them) making it a lot more versatile than jobs. In endgame situations you'll want to use jobs to improve your role in the party even more but when you're soloing or simply doing casual activities you'll want GLA.

[Ryans]

2 jobs are more than enough for each class and I don't see why it would make GLA useless. GLA would have a lot more abilities at its disposal (and with the ability limit you'd have to pick which ones you want and can't even use all of them) making it a lot more versatile than jobs. In endgame situations you'll want to use jobs to improve your role in the party even more but when you're soloing or simply doing casual activities you'll want GLA.

This isn't a topic about the usefulness of classes compared to jobs. Its a topic about job differentiation from their base class and how future jobs will be added on to the existing classes. As it is now, a job is the same thing as the class but with a small amount of extra abilities. While those abilities can be extremely helpful, it doesn't make them play much different from the class. It makes me wonder how a new job would feel any different from either the base class or the previous jobs attached to the class.

I suppose my problem with the system is that jobs don't change the way you play a class, they simply augment it in the smallest way possible. The simplest way I can say it is; I would like the majority of the skills a job uses be from just that, the job you are using.

[Alkar]

This isn't a topic about the usefulness of classes compared to jobs. Its a topic about job differentiation from their base class and how future jobs will be added on to the existing classes. As it is now, a job is the same thing as the class but with a small amount of extra abilities. While those abilities can be extremely helpful, it doesn't make them play much different from the class. It makes me wonder how a new job would feel any different from either the base class or the previous jobs attached to the class.

I suppose my problem with the system is that jobs don't change the way you play a class, they simply augment it in the smallest way possible. The simplest way I can say it is; I would like the majority of the skills a job uses be from just that, the job you are using.

Well if you read my previous post you'll see that's exactly what I'm talking about. You add more skills to the base class making it different from its job (because the job can't use them) and with all these new abilities you basically create another pool for the second job. Now you have two completely different jobs coming from the same class and as a result the class itself is a whole new mix of both but weaker. Classes are meant to have a lot more options when it comes to skills and spells compared to jobs but at the same time they can't excel at roles like jobs do.

[Platinumstorm]

I think your problems could be alleviated with more options in skills for the classes themselves. There's also no demand that the jobs must use the skills provided by the class, just that they have to branch off of them.

[Arkine]

SE isn't going to get rid of classes, I think that much is clear. That reason alone is why I'm not saying get rid of them.

You'll notice I said "at a lot slower frequency" in reference to classes learn skills. If classes are learning abilities at the same rate as jobs, they will have even less differentiation from their jobs then the situation we are in now.

Btw, your math is off on the ratio of class:job in terms of abilities. Unless you are talking about the ratio in the system in my original post, classes and jobs would have 5 moref skills at 75 if classes stopped getting abilities at 50. The difference would be jobs get 10 unique abilities and classes get 10 shared abilities. And again, I said classes should get abilities but at a slower rate than jobs, meaning that they would still get new abilities on the way to 75.

Well no, jobs already have 5 more skills, and 5 tiers more (5x5=25 + 50 = 75) you'll have in total 10 abilities more and anything a class learns the job gets too, so in a sense as long as the leveling continues the gap between a job and a class will get bigger.

as for cross class abilities (which I rather not count since we should just a class by its own merit not by what it borrows from others) sure you'll probably have access to more though I think with the limitation of 30 skills on the action bar you'll eventually hit a roof and it'll be more about the quality of skills, and I think jobs will come on top in that category.

2 jobs are more than enough for each class and I don't see why it would make GLA useless. GLA would have a lot more abilities at its disposal (and with the ability limit you'd have to pick which ones you want and can't even use all of them) making it a lot more versatile than jobs. In endgame situations you'll want to use jobs to improve your role in the party even more but when you're soloing or simply doing casual activities you'll want GLA.

The only thing classes have over jobs in solo/low man situations is access to cure and Stoneskin, (the entire classes are for soloing argument is based around that some jobs can't heal, while classes can borrow cure and stoneskin from CNJ. ask yourself this: if more jobs had a curative skill would you use classes over them for soloing?) but in cases like PLD, WAR and WHM jobs do have access to curative abilities and always performed better, a PLD will outlast and probably out DD GLA with Holy Succor, Divine Veil and Spirits Within. WAR I need not explain since they needed to rebalance them to stop them from being the overloads of solo tanking and DDing and WHM has been proven to be able to dish out damage and stay alive in many situations. (Also BRD can DD and cure, and keep himself refreshed)

As for having more skills, the fact is PLD will out tank GLA and DRK will out DD GLA, so its stuck in a middle (I want to play alone) ground, since nobody wants a mediocre DD or a mediocre tank over a proper one in any PT situation and the fact that as levels go up jobs just get better at their roles while classes stay the same. (CNJ will never out heal WHM because WHM is a CNJ built for healing) which brings us back to the play solo argument, in which I have to say...

Interchangeable Subjobs! go WAR/WHM! the world is yours!

And yes I'm aware the chances of Yoshi and the team being enlightened by my wisdom are very very slim( this slim | ), but that never stopped Barney Stinson from preaching the Bro Code, nor will it stop me.

[Alaltus]

WAR I need not explain since they needed to rebalance them to stop them from being the overloads of solo tanking

Marauder beats Warrior for soloing stronger enemies where as Warrior beats Marauder for soloing multiple weaker enemies. Steel cyclone isnt such a big loss when your fighting less enemies where as all the class abilities will help keep you going for longer.

One thing SE could do to help pronounce the difference between class and job is to add more options to their arsenals. Give lancer access to short spear + shield and give Marauder Axe and Shield giving both access to Gladiator shield abilities. Give Gladiator access to greatsword allowiing it to take better advantage of dd class abilities but in each instance the job wouldnt have access to these other weapons. As for archer and pugilist i'm not really sure maybe archer gets crossbow which has debuffs and pugilist gets a new h2h weapon that has the guard skill(from xi) attached to it? They could also tie new solo/small group efficient class abilities to those weapons locking job and other classes from using them.

[lshumaker]

as for cross class abilities (which I rather not count since we should just a class by its own merit not by what it borrows from others) sure you'll probably have access to more though I think with the limitation of 30 skills on the action bar you'll eventually hit a roof and it'll be more about the quality of skills, and I think jobs will come on top in that category.

Judging by the 2.0 UI it looks like we'll have more skills per action bar. One action bar is 12 wide and 2 high, so 3 times 24 is about 72 skills total. At least that is my theory.

[Grey_Cain]

Judging by the 2.0 UI it looks like we'll have more skills per action bar. One action bar is 12 wide and 2 high, so 3 times 24 is about 72 skills total. At least that is my theory.

From the looks of it, one is pressing just a number (1, 2, etc.), and the row above is pressing Shift + number (S1, S2, etc.)? There could be a few different implementations from that:
- Pressing up or down changes both bars to a new preset pair of bars (double-bar rotations)
- Pressing up or down rotates through so your S bar becomes base and the bar above S becomes the new S bar (somewhat like current)
- A (Alt) and C (Control) bars can be added for up to four bars on screen (fills a lot of screen space, though) (but probably not if macros still use alt and control)
- Combinations of the above

They're also going to be adding item use to the bar (note the potions at the end), so there's going to be more than just skills taking up space. Also, there isn't really a need to limit the number of bars to just 3 anyway. It seems to be an artifact from the initial release, so they could probably change the number of bars to infinite, really.

Another thing they could do is to have more quests to unlock more job abilities, but without raising level cap at all and still limiting to choosing just 5 of those abilities to be equipped at any one time. Of course, it'll screw with the system in the future if they ever do raise the level cap, although they could just change the pre-reqs on the quests and add more slots as you level, I guess.