Time to Quit

[Renathras]

The problem with that is...that'd require there to be actual mess ups as folks claim. I personally don't think the game is perfect but it IS growing each and every expac so that means they're doing something right (contrary to what many say here). It's less a case of devs messing up and more a case of people not feeling like the game caters to them anymore. For a game that's been apparently dying for 4+ years according to these forums, I can't tell really, and numbers don't support that thought.

This.

From what data we DO have, the game is growing vs the past. The Steam data is a poor measure (and probably the most antagonistic/pessimistic of the data we have), but even it shows higher levels of players and active log-ins than pre-2021. The game on Steam is at or above 5.4/5.5 levels, and spikes higher every new patch.

The other data sets we have, like the Lodestone crawls that Lucky Bancho puts together, show player retention higher post-expansion than any prior expansion.

While I do agree the game isn't perfect and there are things I'd like to see fixed or changed going forward, it's not dying. It's not even clear it's plateauing. My big issue with doomsayers making this claim is that it's just false by even the most pessimistic data.

Overcoming a difficult challenge should be part of the reward...

I think there are a couple parts here that often are missed.

1) People that do difficult content often say they do it for the challenge, but refuse to do it without reward. This suggest the aren't being honest about their motivations.
2) People will do things they don't like if the reward is great enough to them...but is that good game design? Force people into doing something they find un-fun...in a game...which is supposed to be fun?
3) Difficult things can have rewards without them being exclusive to that content, provided it has some other advantage (time efficiency, for example). This is still "tangible".
4) Even if we ignore that and go with your premise, Savage groups still will attempt 8 clears for all their members, not just one.

I agree all content should have rewards, but I tend to support an "all roads lead to Rome" model of video game design. The Sand step in the HW Relic I thought was very well done precisely because it gave players lots of ways to engage with it, with different ones being more or less efficient (in time and resources), but everything from Level farming for those Aether Incased Vilekin chests to DoH/DoL crafting scripts could be used to progress it, as could running Alexander raids.

The trick, I think, is in giving people efficiencies they can use. For example, suppose Criterion Savage capped your tomes for the week in a single run. Now, at least for a little while, hardcore players (who are the ones it's made for) have a good reason to run it. Would you rather spend a few hours chain running Experts to cap on Tuesday (that's something like, what 7 Expert runs in a row since you only get the daily bonus on the first one?), or run a single Criterion (Savage) if you've got it down to where you can do it in half an hour with your static-mates splitting into two groups? Not even an exclusive reward, but already there's a reason to actually run the things once a week. Some might then choose to do that while others choose Extremes or Hunt Trains or what-have-you, but the point is, it's a competitive and attractive option at that point since you trade difficulty for time efficiency, which matters to some people.

It actually is not growing but okay ? lol, it's stable yes, but its not growing.

To prove my point based on Steamchart's sample which is a certain % of the community...

Prefacing this with "steam numbers are HORRIBLY bad and likely don't represent the playerbase as a whole", you can find fault with that statement all you want, I already debunked this. The problem isn't using Steam numbers, the problem is HOW people are using them with poor/incorrect analysis. For example, you're looking July 2022 to present. Why? Because if you cherrypick data like that, it supports your position. But what if you DON'T? What if you look at all the data?

Well, fortunately for us all, I already did that.

UNfortunately, I think the thread and post got deleted. So the analysis isn't here, but I do still have the picture:



As anyone can see - and recall that I said Steam numbers are likely the most pessimistic, meaning the most likely to state your case - we are still above patch 5.4 numbers, meaning "apples-to-apples" comparisons of numbers at this time last expansion to this time this expansion shows GROWTH, not stagnation, and certainly not decline.

Moreover, consulting the graph at the top, it show we're at approximately the same level as we were in Summer 2021, when we had the WoW collapse, and this was well before EW launch, which temporarily boosted that (a pattern ALL not dead MMOs have with every expansion launch), and we also get more minor but still significant bumps every major patch.

By the Steam numbers, the game is AT LEAST as popular as it was in 5.4, and probably a bit moreso.

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You did not "give evidence of your claim". You cherry-picked data that, if viewed on the whole, does not support your claim. The game seems to be at a higher level than it was this time last expansion. That is defined as growth. Not decline, not stagnation/stable. Growth. Increase. Higher than it was then.

So it's hard to make the case the Devs have a lot of apologizing to do.

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Again, I say this as a person who wants some changes - I REALLY want Exploration Zones back, and would love to see more open world content and more heterogeneity within some of the roles, particularly Healers and to a lesser extent, Tanks, and I think the combat system/encounter design needs to be changed, particularly in reference to mitigation checks, and that Job design needs to be less oGCD/weave based on at least some Jobs with more strategic GCD focus (contrast the four present Healer Jobs to BLU in Healer Mimicry using GCD heals to see how different the two playstyles are and feel) - but objectively, by even the most pessimistic numbers, the data does not suggest that the Devs have made huge mistakes, that the game is dying, or even that the game has plateaued.