Manderville Relic Criticism

[Supersnow845]

So, instead you just want to farm some random old dungeon a couple dozen times, because that's somehow more fun or engaging? Personally, I like the freedom to do whatsoever whets my whistle and make progress on the relic at the same time. If it bugs you that much, just create your own specific grind. Let one class use Alliance Raids only, another one Expert Dungeons, another one Hunt Trains, etc.. What I find annoying is - for example - I'm up to the step in the Bozja chain where you need 15 of an item that drops specifically from Level 70 Dungeons or HOH. I have little interest in the Deep Dungeons, and running 15 level 70 dungeons on a now-level 90 class is boring. Doing what I find fun and making progress regardless? Thank you.



Because there comes a certain point where doing the same thing ad nauseum creates burnout. The more jobs there are, the more potential relics you're looking to get, the more you might have to do the same exact grinds over and over and over to do that. Consider how one of the biggest complaints WoW received in Shadowlands was that you were originally forced to have each and every toon you created go through the same story quests, so much a problem that they ended up implementing an "alternate" route that let you get all the xp you needed by doing - get this - whatever you wanted, and then once you hit max level, you could skip the story quests. The relic grind in FFXIV acknowledges that issue by letting you do effectively whatever you want from the start to chip away at the grind.

Except you can’t do whatever you want

You can basically do level 90 dungeons and a select few of the roulettes

Why can’t I do it with eureka, why can’t I do it with POTD, why can’t I do it with ocean fishing

Encouraging the same roulettes that don’t need more incentives isn’t letting you do them however you want


And using the “but what if I want all of them” is a flawed excuse because relics should be balanced around the assumption most people will only get one or maybe 2 and that’s what the overwhelming majority of people will do, balancing around relic collectors isn’t good design

[Koros]

Except you can’t do whatever you want

You can basically do level 90 dungeons and a select few of the roulettes

Why can’t I do it with eureka, why can’t I do it with POTD, why can’t I do it with ocean fishing

Encouraging the same roulettes that don’t need more incentives isn’t letting you do them however you want


And using the “but what if I want all of them” is a flawed excuse because relics should be balanced around the assumption most people will only get one or maybe 2 and that’s what the overwhelming majority of people will do, balancing around relic collectors isn’t good design

lmao they only have like 2 complete post-nerf relics total ever, they aren't even a relic collector

they are just using other people (relic collectors) to justify their argument. they don't speak for relic collectors

if anything relic collectors would actually want a grind so their relics are actually worth bragging about

[Astrahime]

Except you can’t do whatever you want
why can’t I do it with POTD

Except, you can?
You can farm Causalities in all 3 Deep Dungeons and PvP modes if you enter as a level 90 job.

[Deo14]

So, instead you just want to farm some random old dungeon a couple dozen times, because that's somehow more fun or engaging? Personally, I like the freedom to do whatsoever whets my whistle and make progress on the relic at the same time. If it bugs you that much, just create your own specific grind. Let one class use Alliance Raids only, another one Expert Dungeons, another one Hunt Trains, etc.. What I find annoying is - for example - I'm up to the step in the Bozja chain where you need 15 of an item that drops specifically from Level 70 Dungeons or HOH. I have little interest in the Deep Dungeons, and running 15 level 70 dungeons on a now-level 90 class is boring. Doing what I find fun and making progress regardless? Thank you.

Sometimes I wonder if these kind of people ever played MMORPGs before early 10s.

This genre was built upon long term rewards. If you want short term dopamine shots, then you have so many games to pick from. Every single MOBA, FPS, BRs, nearly all popular games are like that.

Quite often, journey is more important than a destination. Relics have very "meh" destination, and now EW deleted even the journey. So what's left?

This dumb hyperbole that "It's better than running 999 old dungeons" is so cheap, nobody wants that. World isn't black and white, you can have a compromise, not just one side of an extreme. Even if you wanted to make a grind using only content old, you can still do it in a sensible way, just learn how to make fun grinds from GW2 devs.

Or ever better, you don't even need to make a grind using old content, IS, V&C and EO are all brand new content which have no meaningful rewards, it's all one and done, so just connect this content without rewards, to a rewards without progression system and voila, everything fits perfectly.

Before all the "acktushly, it would be worse because of X or Y strawman arguments", here's one of my suggestions/draft from a while back. It's not perfect, it could definitely be refined. It makes a grind more involved, gives freedom of choice, and isn't too grindy if you choose no to make it grindy. It's only an example of possible one step, another steps could follow similar path:

Material X - you get this either from:

IS - Buy it for blue Cowries. This is effectively passive income for this material. If you don't want any grind, you can get all of this material here, albeit at slow, time-gated pace

V&C - You get X amount of material in here, you also get daily bonus material. Harder versions give similar amounts so the casuals don't whine.

EO - Same as V&C. If you get bored of V&C, you can farm this material here or vice-versa. You get another bonus for finishing certain floor sets. No 21-30 spamming.

Now all three content which died 1 or 2 weeks after release have at least some meaning.

This could be expanded much further. Next step, for example, you need X amount of Y, so you can do current AR/NR and get amount which is balanced (as if neither AR or NR give significantly more for time invested, unlike Anima and A9S) and/or you can also buy this for some tomes.

This would give you wide variety of things you can do. It won't force you to spam same thing over and over. There should be daily bonuses, so that you can choose lesser grind, but with more time-gating if you wish so.

[Nezerius]

Because there comes a certain point where doing the same thing ad nauseum creates burnout. The more jobs there are, the more potential relics you're looking to get, the more you might have to do the same exact grinds over and over and over to do that. Consider how one of the biggest complaints WoW received in Shadowlands was that you were originally forced to have each and every toon you created go through the same story quests, so much a problem that they ended up implementing an "alternate" route that let you get all the xp you needed by doing - get this - whatever you wanted, and then once you hit max level, you could skip the story quests. The relic grind in FFXIV acknowledges that issue by letting you do effectively whatever you want from the start to chip away at the grind.

Going to assume that you completely skipped the part of my post that you didn't quote. A safe assumption considering your Shadowlands example.

"The more jobs there are, the more potential relics you're looking to get"
As I pointed out in my post, there's multiple alternatives to obtaining weapons for alternate jobs. You don't have to get a relic on all of them. A crafted, EX trial, or tomestone weapon will do just fine. These alternative options have been available for about two months now, as well.

Oh, and you might be misremembering your Shadowlands example. The leveling campaign skip system that you're referring to, called Threads of Fate, was already a thing at launch.

[Avoidy]

Man, remember when people were saying it'd just be the first step that was like this and we were all delusional if we thought steps 2 and 3 would be tomes as well?
Haha
Man

[TheNight]

Man, remember when people were saying it'd just be the first step that was like this and we were all delusional if we thought steps 2 and 3 would be tomes as well?
Haha
Man

Even the first step of Bozja had a solo instance and a pseudo-trial attached to it. Even if we're only comparing first steps of relics, this is a new low.

First steps of ARR: Multiple steps were released in the patch, even in the first step we got two trials
First steps of HW: 3 steps were released in the first patch. They reused old content (FATEs, dungeons, hunts, GC seals, crafting, tomes) but it was a significantly longer grind and it also had far more variety.
First step of SB: Anemos, which is an entire exploratory zone.
First step of ShB: A solo instance, a trial, and even an EX trial
First step of EW: 1500 tomes...

[Reinha]

First steps of ARR: Multiple steps were released in the patch, even in the first step we got two trials
First steps of HW: 3 steps were released in the first patch. They reused old content (FATEs, dungeons, hunts, GC seals, crafting, tomes) but it was a significantly longer grind and it also had far more variety.
---
First step of EW: 1500 tomes...

I wanted a normal relic quest like we used to have instead of another exploratory zone. Looks like the dev in charge of this got salty and just turned it into tome weapons instead of actually producing content. There is no special tinkering or development of the weapon nor uncovering new people and locations to aid us in our quest. Just one tome vendor.

[DragonFlyy]

Man, remember when people were saying it'd just be the first step that was like this and we were all delusional if we thought steps 2 and 3 would be tomes as well?
Haha
Man

Man remember when people complained endlessly about how grindy and time consuming getting relics were. So the devs listened and now everyone complains that we got EXACTLY what we begged for?

[LaylaTsarra]

In lieu of not getting Instanced Zones this works just fine for me. I don't want some rng drop having to run this dungeon or run these fates ad nauseum to get what we need. People bitched about the zones and they were awesome hopefully we'll get them back in 7.0.