For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[ForsakenRoe]

Farming current 24 mans as a healer is the most boring content this game has to offer, I'm not even exaggerating when I say that cookie clicker gives a bigger dopamine hit than the likes of healing Aglaia.



That's ALL incoming damage as a non MT from Byregot across a ~5 minute fight.

Dumpster fire.

If this was one of your runs, I hope you pressed Rapture/COpp/Indom/Ixochole at those two times and experienced the exhilaration of doing 'good heal work'

[ASkellington]

Do explain how moving all GCD heals fix solo content.

They 100% don't fix healer engagement. I'm just as engage at 50 as I am at 90. Where I've had the MOST engagement of my class is running Orbonne at 70. Where I have *gasp* a mixture of GCD and oGCD heals. Moving everything to the GCD doesn't fix a Twelvesdamn thing and I feel sorry for you if you think it does. All it does is move all my problems to the GCD. And make the GCD that much more bloated.

I've already given three long essays over the course of a year how it doesn't.

I also gave a reason why Dia stacking isn't good skill expression AND also poor engagement. You've yet to provide either.

The fact of the matter is FROM ARR to ShB WHM has been using elemental attacks with Aero and Stone. The vast majority of people didn't WANT them to change to Dia and Glare and got them anyway and want them back. Or are you gonna dispute that claim? Here in comes the question:

If we're moving this to AST because they have a similar issue - AST had 6 different cards, they now have 1 and seals system. Do we give AST mains back the old card system with changes or keep the new one because people like it?

Its not the same because effects vs gameplay mechanic but... it is the same in that "old mains didn't ask for this change; new mains don't care/want to keep it". For WHM the ideal solution (if not effect glams which we all know are likely going to be on the Mog Station lmao) is to keep both, which you can do. There's no reason Aero III can't come back, and there's also no reason for a Stone + Water attack can't come in as well (perhaps with Water nourishing the lily or blood lily).

For AST, I already gave the devs a way to use the current seals system as a buffing mechanic back in Shb that they could've used for EW after they decoupled Divination from it. They didn't use it, so at this point, I don't want to keep it at all. They had 2 tries, I'm not willing to give them another. Fix the card issue.

Comparing Kardia/HoT to an Esuna+Heal is a why moment. I can't control if Kardia heals a tank unless I want to micromanage taking it off and on. Which if that was the gimmick of SGE cool but its not. I also can't control if a HoT ticks into overheal. I CAN control if I cast Esuna on a target who's at 100% hp. Doubly so if Esuna is 10k. Doom is an example of debuff that you can Esuna and takes 0 damage. Only other debuffs you'd want to Esuna are Pacify/Silence (which usually also means no damage taken) and Paralysis/Stun. Which either can or cannot give damage depending on the boss. In no situation would I want to Esuna a DoT when I am offered a HoT.

So with all of that, why would I want Esuna to also heal? I wouldn't. And yes, I do get upset that I go to mitigate something and the shield isn't consumed. It means I need to fix my timing.


Ok, you can call my ideas dumb. You aren't calling me dumb so I don't care. Its called an opinion. You don't have to like mine and I don't have to like yours. If I want to say from my perspective your idea is a dumb change, I can. You can either take my opinion or ignore it. I call a LOT of the dev's decisions dumb and garbage too. You aren't unique.


I'll reword my statement then, which I did in my post already but you refuse to focus on that with your replies for some reason: why are you going to remove Lustrate just to change it into Aetherpact instead of just MOVING Lustrate to the Fey Gauge? This is why I call the change dumb. Because it looks like you wanted to remove Lustrate, realize it has a purpose and then said, "well Aetherpact has its issues with channeling, lets turn it into a mini Lustrate".

And to clarify, your reasons for removing Lustrate are "no reasons" because they aren't good enough reasons. Its a hyperbole. Not a lie. If you want to call it a lie, sure. Either way I'm questioning the purpose of your change.

Glad to see you find the idea of making spreading DoTs (and potential HoTs) an interesting direction for SCH. Its one I'd like for them to play into as that seems like it could be fun and its literally RIGHT THERE. Seriously devs, go look at your PvP designs. Its not hard to bring some of that over to PvE.

Broil last I checked was a single target attack, not an AOE. You may not think its dumb, but I sure AF do that in this one instance I want to use a single target ability to spread my DoTs instead of a separate one or another AOE attack. I don't see why you're so against Bane coming back especially if you don't want DT to fill its void.

Further, yes, I do want to see breaking of the 1 or 7 (since that's my aoe button) spam. While your changes technically do that, I can still voice that I don't like HOW you're doing it.

[Renathras]

You are literally quoting words from that other thread... within the wrong link (this thread's post-ID instead).

I posted in this thread. Where the "troll" was posting. What are you on about? Your HB in that thread was referencing this thread, so I replied in this thread.

What I'm pointing out is that in THAT thread, you pointed out that someone can agree with anyone on a specific point and that isn't an endorsement of all that other person's views across all posts and threads.

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"Which, in early ARR" - and in early ARR, WHM had no functional oGCD healing and both WHM and SCH had to GCD heal all the time and frequently not go into Cleric or even not damage at all. This is another case of our disagreement due to you trying to work in what you wish things were and me dealing in what things are. Criterion is taking the place of that kind of content, it just isn't worth what it should be and doesn't have a Roulette system, which is relevant to most people.

Raids didn't have an explicit hard mode, either. There was one set of Savage fights (though debateably closer to Ultimate). Again, this isn't relevant unless you have an inside line with one of the main Devs and they're telling you they're considering restoring ARR systems?

...

Roe, I mean this in the nicest way possible - if you're doing Ultimates (content that only around 5% of the playerbase does), then you aren't midcore anymore, you're passed that. Midcore are more people like me who dabble in Savages and mostly do stuff like Extremes or similar content like BA or DRSav. I know the openers and optimal rotations of all the Jobs I play, have decked out tome gear with generally correct melds for the Jobs I play, practice on target dummies, clear Extremes on patch, am aware of the meta, post on the forums, and so on/etc. I tend towards more casual specifically because I don't have a Static to do things with (because I really don't like having to schedule play activities in life), and so I like activities that can be soloed or drop-in/drop-out/chill partying (Eureka/Bozja/Hunt Trains) type content, but in terms of general skill, game knowledge, and activities, I'm in line with what are PROBABLY the general domain of "midcore".

I don't find it "impossible", I see what people say. I DISAGREE that what they want would be good for the game overall. I THINK that difficult content should be compartmentalized and not spill over to the entire rest of the game. I also think this of midcore into casual/MSQ content, too. And I think the reverse; I don't think Ultimates should be things people are clearing left and right as Ice Mages, either. So I'm consistent on that both ways.

I've said before turn Dia into a GCD with a CD (say 12 sec) and Assize as a GCD with a CD (say 15 sec). We'd get this same thing. And people here don't like such proposals. Because the more buttons isn't really what is desired, it's...something else.

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As for content:

MSQ stuff should always be casual, full stop. That means by necessity, unless they start adding extra dungeons, Expert Roulettes are going to be casual content. At level cap we get 2 "optional" dungeons, but the rest of Expert through the expansion will be MSQ, so at this point, that ship has sailed. That's what Criterion is at this point - or could/should be - they just need to make it an efficient way of grinding tomes for people that would rather have more difficult grinds. (Though I do agree that revisiting old dungeons and seeing the story advance is cool, and am sad they seem to have abandoned that concept...)

I'm not the one going '100% agree' to a fairly obvious troll who's openly claimed that their only experience in this game is levelling dungeons and is merrily wading into discussions about endgame based on the likes of Doma Castle. But don't let me take away that dopamine hit of someone actually siding with you for a change

You're perilously close to getting a hearty guffaw.

You don't have to listen, but I'll say it anyway:

I was agreeing with a STATEMENT. As Shurrikhan said in the very next thread to this one when Supersnow agreed with me in opposition to someone else, a person can agree with a single statement from another person when they think that person is correct and it does not mean they are doing something untoward nor that they are endorsing everything that other person said. If you bothered to keep reading, you MIGHT have noticed I've quoted that guy on several things and said I think he was wrong about various things.

So if THAT'S what you're pissy about, you need to check yourself.

Moreover, there are other people here who frequently agree with me, and I've long since gotten over needing a "dopamine hit" of agreement. Something you wouldn't even know about anyway, considering you could post a picture of baby vomit and get likes here since you have the "right politics" to this clique. Indeed, simply posting anything at all attacking me will get someone AT LEAST 3, usually more than 5, and sometimes double digit likes. As you can see from your post there. So don't pretend you know what I do or don't want or need.

Dumpster fire.

That's not what dumpster fires are. Also, I find that amusing, since I've yet to do an Aglaia run where I don't have to consistently either raise people or do a lot of healing for the damage they take. Then again, I don't run illegal against the TOS parsers, so...I don't have a pretty picture to post of it. I'll just have to screenshot a run sometime with all the times my raise macro went off.

Do explain how moving all GCD heals fix solo content.

I mean, I do all MSQ on healers and solo Deep Dungeons on healers. I don't have an issue with them, so them needing a "fix" is subjective. I can't imagine anything short of a DPSer level rotation that would likely please you.

And I don't mean that to be snippy, solo content is generally going to be a relatively simplistic affair compared to anything super engaging. Like ask yourself the question, what was the last solo instance encounter that you REALLY felt engaged on to the point you could see yourself wanting to do it again and again and again?

"fix solo content" isn't going to be something we CAN do. Anything we could do for you to do that would break the game for large swaths of "everyone else" most likely.

On the other hand, it WOULD fix challenging content. GCD healing, especially with cast times, actually requires...well...effort. Beyond merely making a healing plan and then weaving in one of dozens of no-cost oGCDs.

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Stacking Dia: Okay, NO. You guys need to stop this bullshit. I gave you reasons - a LOT of reasons. Instead of ANY. OF. YOU. saying why my reasons were wrong, you gave your own reasons for why stacking wouldn't add skill expression...but simply ignored any and all arguments I made. But even if you disagree with my arguments I DEFINITELY MADE THEM. So no, you don't get to say "You've yet to provide either.". I ABSOLUTELY provided them. You just don't like/disagree with them. That'd be like if you brought someone burgers for food and they insisted they wanted tacos and that you brought them no food. You pointing out you DID, in fact, bring them food, just not the food they wanted, and them then saying "No you didn't! You brought no food!" would make them a liar.

So you're a liar, and I've no reason to reply to the rest.

I've given arguments, you don't get to say I haven't, and you don't get to just SAY things and them be accepted. Screw that.

[Shurrikhan]

What are you on about?

Exactly what I said. You literally took a quote from another thread and stuck inside the quote brackets of a post from this thread.

"Which, in early ARR" - in early ARR, WHM had no functional oGCD healing and both WHM and SCH had to GCD heal all the time and frequently not go into Cleric or even not damage at all.

Which has literally... what... to do with whether would be a waste of time to allow for dungeons / Expert Roulette to be of enjoyable use to a larger range of players?

Once again (until such time as dungeons are dying from such low participant counts that any sort of additional options beyond just the one form each of Leveling and Expert Roulette would kill off that content type), it isn't zero sum.

You've given no reason why middle-of-the-road difficulty shouldn't be available to 4-man content even while 8-man boss-fights alone (a narrower category) support everything from the most casual level of difficulty to the hardest.

I THINK that difficult content should be compartmentalized and not spill over to the entire rest of the game.

There's a large difference between wanting difficult content to "spill over" to the rest of the game and simply wanting to see a return to some of what we already previously had --before the combined effects of nerfs even to casual content, job simplification, and potency creep-- or wanting to widen the range of engagement available to different content types.

I gave you reasons - a LOT of reasons. Instead of ANY. OF. YOU. saying why my reasons were wrong, you gave your own reasons for why stacking wouldn't add skill expression...but simply ignored any and all arguments I made.

Which were separately addressed before dealing with the two that actually mattered (that all others were seemingly meant to support) -- (A) whether it would actually increase skill expression, and (B) whether it would, in net effect, create more compelling gameplay.

You've mentioned that it can be more easily used for movement, since misuse can't typically thereby punish the player if movement requirements are infrequent (since you essentially get n freebies per minute). But that does not necessarily make the design more engaging, just as splitting heals into at-cost and no-cost, skipping over all in between, does not necessarily make design more engaging. (It is usually the opposite.)

You've claimed that it increases the required foresight. But merely offsetting a portion of that decision-making as foolproof does not increased required foresight; it just means that it's no longer rewarded until you pass that threshold, returning to what can be punished.

More centrally, you claimed that it increases skill expression. But neither adding nor (net) enhancing considerations, all while offsetting, simplifying, and devaluing what remains... does not add skill expression. It at best just gives more slack, removing much of that skill expression where the utility mismanaged is rarely needed while giving the players who would initially benefit more to hang themselves with when that utility is needed.

Again, I don't think it would be the worst thing to happen, but, especially if the duration per application were significantly shorter than now, it would be a downgrade to even the current design, let alone other suggestions here.

[Shurrikhan]

Do explain how moving all GCD heals fix solo content.

To be fair, unless increasing the GCD healing required and enhancing downtime gameplay were mutually exclusive (I'm of course assuming here that the latter would help healer solo-content, since that seems to me very likely)... that's not something his suggestion needs to deal with. They're mostly still two separate issues.

Well, unless "increasing healing requirements" bundles with it a "don't increase the depth of downtime tools" and/or "don't consolidate tool bloat in favor of more versatile tools and/or broader agency". Though, the same would go for any plan to increase depth of downtime tools that specifically asks not to increase healing requirements or adjust the existing/base healing tools for more agency. Etc., etc.

I suspect both would be useful.

[ASkellington]

To be fair, unless increasing the GCD healing required and enhancing downtime gameplay were mutually exclusive (I'm of course assuming here that the latter would help healer solo-content, since that seems to me very likely)... that's not something his suggestion needs to deal with. They're mostly still two separate issues.

Well, unless "increasing healing requirements" bundles with it a "don't increase the depth of downtime tools" and/or "don't consolidate tool bloat in favor of more versatile tools and/or broader agency". Though, the same would go for any plan to increase depth of downtime tools that specifically asks not to increase healing requirements or adjust the existing/base healing tools for more agency. Etc., etc.

I suspect both would be useful.

It usually does bundle with not increasing the depths of downtime tools. Not increasing healing requirements isn't something that I advocate for, but I don't see SE removing the bloat of our healing kits nor increasing damage enough to USE them. "Because of new players".

I'm beyond fed up with "new players" being the sole reason for everything from upping healing requirements and fixing our objectively shitty rotation and lack of either extra dps tools to break up the spam or debuffs and buffs being useful and used or even MANA MANAGEMENT.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

If this was one of your runs, I hope you pressed Rapture/COpp/Indom/Ixochole at those two times and experienced the exhilaration of doing 'good heal work'

I really feel most, if not all bosses should more or less share Nald'thal's damage profile. Sure they don't do much more, but it's still well spaced between each unavoidable damage.

I find it abhorrent on first two bosses when the only unavoidable damage comes with 3m (Byregot's Ordeal of Thunder) to 6m (Rhalgr's Lightning Reign, we won't see this one anymore RIP) spacing from the previous one.

[...]That's not what dumpster fires are. Also, I find that amusing, since I've yet to do an Aglaia run where I don't have to consistently either raise people or do a lot of healing for the damage they take. Then again, I don't run illegal against the TOS parsers, so...I don't have a pretty picture to post of it. I'll just have to screenshot a run sometime with all the times my raise macro went off.

You don't even need to use that illegal tool yourself to find said pretty pic/data. Simply search any random Aglaia logs that's littered across said website and filter out a random non-tanks' damage taken profile.

They're free to grab.

[Sebazy]

<snip>

Do you?
Or is this just your heresay again?

[ForsakenRoe]

if you're doing Ultimates (content that only around 5% of the playerbase does), then you aren't midcore anymore, you're passed that.

I'm not 'doing' ultimates, I've 'done' ultimates previously, hence the distinction I tried to make. I wouldn't expect anyone to consider me a hardcore player if I've not either completed, or am currently progging, TOP and DSR. Hence, 'upper end of midcore' probably fits better

I've said before turn Dia into a GCD with a CD (say 12 sec) and Assize as a GCD with a CD (say 15 sec). We'd get this same thing. And people here don't like such proposals. Because the more buttons isn't really what is desired, it's...something else.

Because the contention is very variable from job to job. On SCH for example, you'd have a point. It's very full on buttons and not many can be consolidated without losing an aspect of them like their versatility. But WHM still has space on the hotbar before it reaches the magical '32' ideal limit of actions, and that's before considering that several actions can be consolidated due to them being redundant/direct upgrades, like Cure1/Cure2, or Medica1/Medica2. I think people look at a suggestion like 'instead of adding Banish as a 15s CD GCD, just make Assize a 15s CD GCD so we don't need to add a new button' and go 'well, why not add a new button, instead of just shifting around what we currently have?' It's not like WHM is suffering for hotbar real estate.

As for Dia being a CD, it's not a terrible idea, but it undeniably loses something in the transition from a DOT to a burst. You can purposely clip a DOT if you need to, to gain a mobility option at a lower damage penalty than if you purposely hold a burst damage CD for mobility. Plus, you might not know in advance that you need that mobility, the DOT allows you to react on the fly to that, the hard CD locks you out. You lose the gameplay factor of 'will the enemy live long enough for the reapplication of this DOT to be a gain over using my filler'. You lose the ability to multi-DOT, being as having several charges to simulate multi-DOTing just means you can throw them all into one target for a DPS gain instead. You also write off the potential for any DOT-interactive gameplay design, such as extension, collapsing for instant damage, or 'if the enemy has X DOT applied, Y has {additional effect}' pseudo-combos.

And in the end, having it as a burst of damage instead of a DOT doesn't really 'benefit' or 'hinder' the player. Whether it's 150+70 per tick for 12s, or 430 as a burst with a 12s CD, the gameplay on single target is the same: press it once per 12s. If tracking the DOT is hard, that's a UI issue you can fix by moving where the 'enemy status bar' is on your HUD. If you can't tell whether the DOT's up, it can be argued that it's equally possible someone will not notice that their Dia Blast is off CD and ready to use, because that'd be a UI issue too. Plus, if Assize were 15s burst and Dia were 12s burst, wouldn't your next move just be 'oh the total ppm for Assize is X, and the total for Dia is Y, why not just have one of the two, with a ppm equal to the current total of the two, to consolidate them since they're functionally identical', I'd even say 'thats kinda justified' since I'm saying the same for Cure1/2 and Medica1/2. Having one as a DOT and one as a burst keeps the two distinct in their damage profiles

tldr I'm not massively against 'Dia is a burst damage' but I do think it would lose a lot of potential design space for the ability to do so, even if said design space is never expanded on because SE be SE

[Renathras]

Do you?
Or is this just your heresay again?

Whatever. /10chars

Seriously, I'm not going to bother engaging with you if you're going to be like this. There's no point. I'm disappointed in you, honestly. I always thought you were better than to be so brash to grief. But I was wrong.

...see folks? I do admit when I'm wrong, at least now and again.