What if we designed other Tank's abilities like they were made for WAR?

[Rithy255]

What I can really hope for tanks in terms of 7.0

Paladin
>More Consistent utility/defensive benefits less Jank from things such as Cover/Clemency (Keep them but give them more use cases), a more fun rotation? things such as Goring blade and fight or flight serve zero purpose in current PLD design and feel like padding, Rework Blocking to be more Intresting, Rework Oath to fit PLD's kit more, reward extra Oath on good defensive use.

Warrior
>Be more Selfish, one man army type of deal, remove team/group healing, still have some sort of utility and targetable defensive so they're in line with other tanks, I'd love warrior to get something like a "beastly shout" or something as a raid wide, Remove how warrior heals for each mob in aoe, it's stupid and ruins Healers job, just make it heal 400 potency like PLD's magic attacks, dungeons aren't "high end" but they're the most played content and War shouldn't just make casual healer players be able to afk.

Dark Knight
>Gain some slow life drain mechs, Improve on its janky clunky defensive kit, REWORK its rotation to be different from Warrior, let it use More Dark Magic effects aswell visually.

Gunbreaker
>Pretty much the only tank I think is in a good spot, it's not too bland and powerful like Warrior and it fits it's design well. Maybe some tweaks here and there.

Extra (all):
Embrace a bit of uniqueness, I think it's fine if a Tank has a weakness and strengths. Rotations Shouldn't feel the same, 30% Mits could do with some Varity ect. Its cool to have unique abilities like Cover but make them actually useable.

[Oizen]

Did I ever say I'm against making them mitigate both damage types? No. But in the current fight design it would barely move the needle and unless you just happen to do nothing but P10S you would be right back here complaining about DM and HoL.

I'm actually just talking about how those skills are just wasted hotbar space in a lot of content compared to Shake and to a lesser extent veil.
Infact I said that right here:

Thats not going to change the damage types used in other content, Magic damage in something like a Deep Dungeon or Criterion add-phase is significantly more rare.

This was refering to the fact there is literally zero reason to ever touch HoL or DM in a good chunk of content, ususally due to its focus on Physical Damage.
You replied with "I dont care about balance in that content", then talked about some other stuff.

In which I think making these just mit all damage would move the needle a lot. But I actually do care about balance in this content so...

[Lyth]

What matters is how players perceive these design decisions in terms of fairness.

Reprisal was a really cool action in Heavensward. It was a counter-attack, as the name suggests, and on a tactile level it was a very satisfying snap followed by a dark explosion effect. It was changed because the game moved away from permanent (or mostly permanent) uptime debuffs like Storm's Path. If they really wanted to in Stormblood, they could have made it work as a job-specific mitigation tool, kept in Divine Veil, and add in a new raidwide mitigation for WAR (like they ultimately did with Shake). What they did instead was donate Reprisal to everyone, remove the elements of the animation and sound that felt good to use, gave PLD an extra mitigation tool, and left DRK with nothing for an expansion.

And then, when they finally could be bothered to give DRK a raidwide mitigation tool as one of the three new actions in Shadowbringers, not only was it obviously inferior to all the pre-existing raidwide mitigation actions, but they couldn't even be bothered to make the effect different from GNB. And now this expansion, they've proceeded to buff WAR's raidwide mitigation even further. There's a fairly obvious pro-WAR bias on the balance team, and they really need someone external to step in and force a change back to something more fair. Otherwise players who would otherwise to play those less favored jobs will switch roles.

Simple things matter when it comes to player perception of balance. If you had two actions, one which mitigates all damage types and a second which only mitigates magical damage, you're obviously going to prefer the universal defensive. It doesn't matter even if every raidwide in the game was redesigned as magical. Why opt for the obviously inferior choice? It only takes a second to scratch out 'magical'. If this was a WAR action and you had a major physical mitigation check in the tier, this subforum would be aflame with complaints and it would be hotfixed immediately, even if it was a relatively minor roadblock. Why do all the other tanks put up with it?

And by the time that we see enough complaints around that they begrudgingly change it, they do the absolute bare minimum required and then go back to their preferential treatment of WAR. I want to see that they care about other tanks as well. I think a systematic revision of raidwide defensives would be a good starting point.

[Absurdity]

This was refering to the fact there is literally zero reason to ever touch HoL or DM in a good chunk of content, ususally due to its focus on Physical Damage.
You replied with "I dont care about balance in that content", then talked about some other stuff.

In which I think making these just mit all damage would move the needle a lot. But I actually do care about balance in this content so...

And I'm saying that even if they made it 10% mitigation for all damage it would still be inferior to Shake until they design fights to have multihit aoes where you can take advantage of DM and HoL's longer duration and ability to mitigate more than a single hit.

But you are correct that I don't care about trying to balance jobs in niche content like Deep Dungeons.
Just like I don't care about balancing them in treasure maps or exploratory zones.

[GoatOfWar]

What matters is how players perceive these design decisions in terms of fairness.

Reprisal was a really cool action in Heavensward. It was a counter-attack, as the name suggests, and on a tactile level it was a very satisfying snap followed by a dark explosion effect. It was changed because the game moved away from permanent (or mostly permanent) uptime debuffs like Storm's Path. If they really wanted to in Stormblood, they could have made it work as a job-specific mitigation tool, kept in Divine Veil, and add in a new raidwide mitigation for WAR (like they ultimately did with Shake). What they did instead was donate Reprisal to everyone, remove the elements of the animation and sound that felt good to use, gave PLD an extra mitigation tool, and left DRK with nothing for an expansion.

And then, when they finally could be bothered to give DRK a raidwide mitigation tool as one of the three new actions in Shadowbringers, not only was it obviously inferior to all the pre-existing raidwide mitigation actions, but they couldn't even be bothered to make the effect different from GNB. And now this expansion, they've proceeded to buff WAR's raidwide mitigation even further. There's a fairly obvious pro-WAR bias on the balance team, and they really need someone external to step in and force a change back to something more fair. Otherwise players who would otherwise to play those less favored jobs will switch roles.

Simple things matter when it comes to player perception of balance. If you had two actions, one which mitigates all damage types and a second which only mitigates magical damage, you're obviously going to prefer the universal defensive. It doesn't matter even if every raidwide in the game was redesigned as magical. Why opt for the obviously inferior choice? It only takes a second to scratch out 'magical'. If this was a WAR action and you had a major physical mitigation check in the tier, this subforum would be aflame with complaints and it would be hotfixed immediately, even if it was a relatively minor roadblock. Why do all the other tanks put up with it?

And by the time that we see enough complaints around that they begrudgingly change it, they do the absolute bare minimum required and then go back to their preferential treatment of WAR. I want to see that they care about other tanks as well. I think a systematic revision of raidwide defensives would be a good starting point.

Well, the unfortunate reality is that those same Warrior players on the forums will gatekeep other tanks (that they won't play) from getting buffs or new toys in the name of ''uniqueness'' that they suddenly seem to cherish after they get babied into being the best at everything. Job identity and homogenisation, rather conviniently, only matters when War is the best at everything. Homogenisation was not a concern when everyone got reprisal or a damage buff to render Dark knight obsolete.
And yet, when i ask for a simple change to put TBN in line with other tank mitigations i get gatekept by Warrior players because the now unwarranted, unrewarding jank makes it ''unique''.
This jank somehow enhances the Warrior main experience.

Their assumed job fantasy seems to just be the best at everything, while other tanks should be defined by jank.
Different tanks can not be good at different pieces of content as long as Warrior exists. Give a tank a new ability and War mains will rant and cry until they get it too.
But then, if you ask for something, anything, that could threaten the status quo of warrior being the best at everything,they will gatekeep you. Hell, War mains are complaining about GNB's damage right now.
I wholeheartedly blame War mains for the homogenisation they cry about when War's top position is remotely threatened.

[Marxam]

Well, the unfortunate reality is that those same Warrior players on the forums will gatekeep other tanks (that they won't play) from getting buffs or new toys in the name of ''uniqueness'' that they suddenly seem to cherish after they get babied into being the best at everything.

I feel the same way about DRK players who keep quoting how op WAR is dungeons when that content literally doesn't matter outside of MSQ and dailies. Savage and Ultimate are the only content that really matters to job balance which is why you always see a hotfix before and after every release. Everything else, including extremes are just quirks and they "balance" this by nerfing said jobs. Where were you when ppl in savage content were saying how op DRK is for having a 25% shield with no risk of over healing and high burst dps in a 2 min meta and WAR/PLD were far behind?

I feel like DRK players just want to stay top dps and drag down others when they come close because their examples do not coincide with the reality of the situation. Things like vengeance and its counter effect only affects physical, something that most boss autos in savage don't do. It also no longer procs healing like in previous expansions because of the nerfs to how WAR receives healing off of gcds exclusively. The one thing I will concede on is holmgang as I do believe it is the strongest invuln in the game but that is because boss design limits tank busters. If tankbusters were coming out more frequently it would lose some relevance but there should not be scenarios like P2S where WAR can holm 1,3,5 busters. DRK players are just as guilty as WAR players for gatekeeping.

Fact of the matter is WAR is not the issue here given the amount of buffs it needed just to eventually get to the point we're at. DRK is the problem because there is no clear vision for the job and they gave up on the SB design of Dark Arts which actually differentiated it from the other tanks in both gameplay and aesthetic. Rather than expanding on that concept they just made it an after thought. If they reintroduce Dark Arts it can work in the 2 min meta. Dark Arts can be a way of buffing potencies during burst windows or adding effects to abilities for some added mitigations. WAR with their Infuriate, only increases potency and 100% direct hit crit. Regardless, DRK might not even be the same in the next expansion because the devs lack that vision, while WAR will just probably get some more to its toolkit to further enhance it and build upon the last decade of design.

On a personal note, I don't like the iteration of BW as it's too much. Imo a 25% HP bubble would have sufficed. That can be paired with ToB or Equilibirum or rampart. Keep NF as it was in ShB. Also, the regen on SiO was a bit much when they could have easily buffed the dispel effect to 3% to encourage WAR's using more than one cd in most scenarios. You also forget how WAR players destroyed overpower and rather than make mythril tempest be a cone they asked for overpower to be a circle.

[Shurrikhan]

And yet, when i ask for a simple change to put TBN in line with other tank mitigations i get gatekept by Warrior players because the now unwarranted, unrewarding jank makes it ''unique''.
This jank somehow enhances the Warrior main experience.

Other DRKs telling you to just time your TBN less badly instead of homogenizing yet another element (TBN into a 25s, MP-less CD) is not a conspiracy by Warriors to keep you down.

[Warrior's] assumed job fantasy seems to just be the best at everything, while other tanks should be defined by jank.

Which is as shit and boring as DRK being arbitrarily the worst at everything but aDPS (which is also a similarly poor explanation for any game-state present or prior; both descriptors have only rarely applied and can be better explained by coincidence resulting from oversights).

So why the assumption that veteran Warriors, of all people, wanted their kits gutted for accessibility?

[Oizen]

If I had to pick an identity for Dark Knight, I would pick speed. A job that focuses and doing high burst damage very quickly, as it does now, but more expanded to all of it.

But I'd like to see the haste effect returned to blood weapon, and any effects given to the job focus on speed even if its just movement speed.

[baklava151]

Yes. Haste good. Slow bad.

[Shurrikhan]

If I had to pick an identity for Dark Knight, I would pick speed. A job that focuses and doing high burst damage very quickly, as it does now, but more expanded to all of it.

But I'd like to see the haste effect returned to blood weapon, and any effects given to the job focus on speed even if its just movement speed.

If it's both fast AND hard-hitting... isn't that ultimately just "High(est) DPS"?

"Expanding" on that "high burst damage... very quickly" motif would otherwise necessarily require siphoning from one or the other. For every additional attack you have per minute, the more those (especially, non-CD-locked / non-"burst") attacks descend towards pool-noodle status.

And this from the job wielding, on average, the heaviest weapon in the game... (Yes, more so than Warrior.)



Don't get me wrong. I miss Blood Weapon's Haste, but in part that's also because it granted some sort of sense to the interactions between DRK's weapon and powers and offered variance to its pace.

At that time, that red aura meant your aura was affecting reality around you, including the weight of the blade (see Scourge, Souleater, relative to Hard, Spinning, Syphon, and Power Slash), while any other faster attack was CD-locked. At the time, it was less about "DRK = Fast" as "DRK manipulates (nearby reality and thereby) its own speed".