Thread: Can 7.0 focus on a storyline without the philosophizing

Originally Posted by TheDecay

Exactly. Once or twice is fine but they've been doing this for six years now and it's really getting stale. There's really only so many times they can use the existentialist/defying fate trope before it completely loses its power.

Exactly. It's in fact kind of refreshing to attempt changing the theme of story-telling in order to appeal to more players and reflect that reality composes of more than one aspect, giving life to both the characters and the world itself. However, the way CBU3 has done it so far is too much, and I'd really appreciate a new change of story-telling themes.

Originally Posted by Remish

I personally thought the story was incredible. I had a lot of fun on patch day and felt on the edge of my seat constantly. It's 6.1 and beyond where I feel disappointed. The lack of longevity with content and a story not remotely as engaging. The fake disbands of the scions that never should have happened.

The first part of EW (Up until the defeat of Zodiark) was enjoyable to me, but everything that happened afterward? Not really.

6.1 and its grounded adventure into the Alzadaal's legacy was also quite enjoyable and refreshing, although the void storyline has been dragged into philosophy again with the meaning of "Friendship & Trust" being the main theme of it, in addition to the unnecessary prolonging of it. It could have ended in 6.4 or even in 6.3 but it seems we're going to have another round in 6.5

Unless 7.0 is a fully grounded adventure, I'm not looking forward to it, and my expectations are even lower knowing Zero is included in it, as she's the current mean through which CBU3 is injecting philosophy into the story.

Hm. I'm having a weird thought here, and I'm not sure if it's a synaptic misfire or something worth writing down. I think one of the things that's been nagging at me about the story lately is the weird mix of philosophies they're doing. What I mean by that is, they're talking a big game about meaning, despair, struggling forward despite it all, etc etc. And then they're pairing it with this weird mushy "everyone's just trying their best and everyone's a good person deep down and there are no real villains only people we haven't spent enough time yapping philosophy at" vague-occasionally-venturing-into-cutesy kumbaya vibe that's just....nooooot landing with me, especially in the EW patch content. I've encountered some meaty, juicy stories that mix existential angst with humor, but something about this isn't doing it for me.

Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

All the things OP dislikes are exactly the story beats that I love about XIV. When Endwalker came out, 3 people close to me all passed away young. It was a hard time in my life and the messaging about life and value resonated with me.

Are you me? Lol jk but seriously I was thinking the same thing when I read the op, and wasn't going to comment but you obviously also get it. This game and its stories of forgiveness, compassion, they all struck me at my core at a time when I really needed them.

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Are you me? Lol jk but seriously I was thinking the same thing when I read the op, and wasn't going to comment but you obviously also get it. This game and its stories of forgiveness, compassion, they all struck me at my core at a time when I really needed them.

There really is some beautiful messaging about life in these stories. Obviously not all have to really enjoy this type of story, but these little reminders can really hit home for others like us.

Originally Posted by Semirhage

Hm. I'm having a weird thought here, and I'm not sure if it's a synaptic misfire or something worth writing down. I think one of the things that's been nagging at me about the story lately is the weird mix of philosophies they're doing. What I mean by that is, they're talking a big game about meaning, despair, struggling forward despite it all, etc etc. And then they're pairing it with this weird mushy "everyone's just trying their best and everyone's a good person deep down and there are no real villains only people we haven't spent enough time yapping philosophy at" vague-occasionally-venturing-into-cutesy kumbaya vibe that's just....nooooot landing with me, especially in the EW patch content. I've encountered some meaty, juicy stories that mix existential angst with humor, but something about this isn't doing it for me.

It's because existentialism is a philosophy that is against essentializing yourself or others. It's about living authentically.

However, some of the main characters in FF14 are very much not living authentically, at least to normal humans like us. They are caricatures, tropes, essences. For a game that has frequently espoused the virtue of celebrating humanity, the human experience, and free will, even if it means making mistakes and being flawed, most of the main Scions do not seem to actually do so since HW. Long gone are the days of Alphinaud actually suffering any consequence from his mistakes. Failing again and again and yet persisting, like Camus' Sisphyus, even if it were futile, can be a potent symbol. Some of the Scions reference this idea at times, saying that they will fight even if the odds are insurmountable. But in the story they are as surmountable as a gentle, carpeted straight road.

Living authentically is not easy. Living authentically is scary because failure no longer has an external excuse - failures belong to you. That kind of is the point of existentialism. If there are no stakes, the philosophy rings hollow, because anyone can do it. Anyone can defy fate if they know they're not going to actually die. Anyone can say that they embrace humanity's flaws and failures if people always get inspired by them and are nice to them - and if they do not, they almost always will after two quests of convincing with good deeds. Anyone can want to fight on if they never failed.

The philosophy the Scions espouse only has merit if we start seeing them actually display human flaws and fail more often.

Sounds more like you are just salty for some reason more then they stories are bad

Hmm... na, I am OK with philosophising and exploring interesting themes. Does the game always get it right? No, it does not always hit the mark (And please can we not have any more fake-out deaths? I do not want anyone to die, but that just silly haha) but name any piece of storytelling that is perfect. I for one really enjoyed Endwalker and what it explored, plus I would rather that they try to do something and fail, rather then just force itself to be a soulless adventure. Final Fantasy, heck fantasy fiction in general, has always been good at doing this. Exploring themes in ways that can only be done in these types of settings and worlds. I think its a shame how people almost think such stories are ‘childish’ nowadays. Honestly, in this crap sack of a Capitalist hate-filled world, we need all the messages of hope that we can get!

If people feel different then fair enough, and I hope they enjoy future content more. To me, one of the beautiful things about fiction is just how subjective it is. I for one am just over half way through FFXVI but am really enjoy the story. The writing of certain characters could be better, but overall I am very happy, especially with character likes Clive and Cid.

Originally Posted by TheDecay

It's because existentialism is a philosophy that is against essentializing yourself or others. It's about living authentically.

However, some of the main characters in FF14 are very much not living authentically, at least to normal humans like us. They are caricatures, tropes, essences. For a game that has frequently espoused the virtue of celebrating humanity, the human experience, and free will, even if it means making mistakes and being flawed, most of the main Scions do not seem to actually do so since HW. Long gone are the days of Alphinaud actually suffering any consequence from his mistakes. Failing again and again and yet persisting, like Camus' Sisphyus, even if it were futile, can be a potent symbol. Some of the Scions reference this idea at times, saying that they will fight even if the odds are insurmountable. But in the story they are as surmountable as a gentle, carpeted straight road.

Living authentically is not easy. Living authentically is scary because failure no longer has an external excuse - failures belong to you. That kind of is the point of existentialism. If there are no stakes, the philosophy rings hollow, because anyone can do it. Anyone can defy fate if they know they're not going to actually die. Anyone can say that they embrace humanity's flaws and failures if people always get inspired by them and are nice to them - and if they do not, they almost always will after two quests of convincing with good deeds. Anyone can want to fight on if they never failed.

The philosophy the Scions espouse only has merit if we start seeing them actually display human flaws and fail more often.

Yeah, I think the clash is extra dissonant because I've seen it done well, especially outside FFXIV. Shadowbringers? Great. Mwah. A fantastical character we see making a evil choices for a recognizably human reason? Alphinaud telling him "it makes no difference" was excellent. Confronting someone who claims they have no choice and reminding them that everything comes down to choices is one of the places an existentialist story truly shines.

Endwalker's been riding too long on "oh, this group of people despises me, stands between me and my goal? I wonder what the right choice could b...PFFFFFF nevermind I'll just bake them an effing pie or something and they'll let me pass because now they see I'm a hero".

Those aren't choices. Nobody behaves like that. It's taking any avenue toward believable writing and mulching it under the Power of Love and Friendship.