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  1. #1
    Player Hurlstone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    867
    Character
    Valamist Hurlstone
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    Not enough FemRos!
    (2)

  2. #2
    Player
    Zanarkand-Ronso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    4,168
    Character
    Johanna Yevon
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurlstone View Post
    Not enough FemRos!
    HERE-HERE
    But I guess its Balanced, because every FemRoe with a VA has been awesome.
    (2)

  3. #3
    Player
    IllyaPrisma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    129
    Character
    Illya Prisma
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    The policy and etiquette of the game discourages players from improving through trial and error, or by player skill comparison. There are very few in-game resources to learn, optimize and play your chosen job effectively. Constructive criticism is non-existent, and FFXIV has adopted what some call toxic inclusivity or toxic positivity.
    (8)

  4. #4
    Player
    kaynide's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,881
    Character
    Kris Goldenshield
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma View Post
    The policy and etiquette of the game discourages players from improving through trial and error, or by player skill comparison. There are very few in-game resources to learn, optimize and play your chosen job effectively. Constructive criticism is non-existent, and FFXIV has adopted what some call toxic inclusivity or toxic positivity.
    This is not meant to sound nearly as inflammatory as it will, so I apologize in advance for that.

    I would suggest re-reading the actual rules/ToS if this is your belief- the policy is pretty clear. You are free to disagree/debate/discuss and figure out things via trial and error. You are free to point other players in the right direction in a constructive manner.

    Indeed, per the ToS the game is MORE in favor of figuring things out for yourself and not being told the “correct” way to do a thing.

    The problem comes when you tell players that one specific way is the "only" way to do it. A lot of players have over-reacted to the rule/policy changes, but if one sits down and actually reads through it, it's really not as bad as the knee-jerk reactions are.

    ToS:

    ・Expressions that provoke or belittle another person, such as excessive criticism, negation/ridicule.

    (Excerpt):
    * There is nothing wrong with providing suggestions that the player community typically follows, but this can only be presented in the form of a "suggestion" and cannot be in the form of a demand.

    * It is not a violation to offer advice when pointing out issues; however, it should be treated as advice only and not something that must be followed.

    (Full Details):
    Key Points
    It is prohibited to make offensive expressions such as those listed in the following examples. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty at its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, and online video or streaming services.
    * Please note that these are just a few examples. Be polite to others and try not to make them feel uncomfortable.

    Examples
    The following behaviors are prohibited:

    Using insulting words such as "stupid," "idiot," "die," "crazy," "garbage," or "trash" to offend others. In addition, even if you do not use direct words, blaming and attacking others, such as "It's [player name]'s fault that we wiped" or "You really make a lot of mistakes," or rephrasing insulting words into any other form is also prohibited. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    Insulting another person's personal taste, such as "your glamour is terrible, you should quit the game," or "the way you talk disgusts me." If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    Insulting others with statements that are unrelated to the subject of the discussion, such as "no wonder you can't do this, look at how you dress your character." If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    Insulting others by threatening them with statements such as "if you get on my bad side, you'll be ostracized from this community," or "I can have you kicked from this group at any time." If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    Using accusatory expressions or sarcastic remarks without offering any constructive advice. Statements such as "people like you will never get better" are prohibited. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    Attacking someone for doing something different from what you or others may feel is the norm. For example, when running Alliance Raids, or playing PvP content, it is prohibited to make statements such as "why aren't you doing [specific thing]? Everyone knows that's how you do this!" If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    * There is nothing wrong with providing suggestions that the player community typically follows, but this can only be presented in the form of a "suggestion" and cannot be in the form of a demand. If said player's actions are interfering with the gameplay of others, then a penalty can be issued once a report is filed and confirmed; however, even in this type of situation, if said player is also being attacked verbally, the penalty can be issued to both players.

    * For additional information refer to the "Expressions that unilaterally reject another person's opinion," and "Expressions that compel a playing style" sections below.

    Mocking another person for making mistakes. Statements such as "how can you screw up on something so simple that no one else messes up?" are prohibited. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    Mocking or ridiculing another player who has been knocked out by using emotes (such as laugh), jumping, or using items (such as fireworks) on top of their character's body. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    Making statements that will hurt the reputation of someone in public areas, such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, and online video or streaming services. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    * Defaming other players, even if the player in question is acting in a way that is offensive to others, or performing a prohibited activity.

    Excessively criticizing or condemning others. Statements such as "you're bad at [something]," or "you're not getting [something] at all" are prohibited. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    * It is not a violation to offer advice when pointing out issues; however, it should be treated as advice only and not something that must be followed. You cannot force someone to play a certain way without the consent of both parties. If such a situation does arise, it could be determined to be giving excessive criticism against that player.

    In the following example, player A is excessively criticizing player B. If player B is not asking for any advice, player A cannot force player B to play a specific way. This type of situation can be determined as an act of excessive criticism.

    Player A: B, you're doing this part wrong.
    Player B: I understand, I'll try harder.
    Player A: You understand the mechanics? Want me to teach you?
    Player B: I do understand, I'm OK. Thank you.
    Player A: You sure you understand? You keep on screwing up. You should do [something] on [something].
    Player B: I understand, I'm sorry.
    Player A: You sure? If you don't know let me know, ok? B, you're screwing up so many times, you're really dragging this out for us.
    Player B: I'm sorry.

    Making statements intended to belittle someone, such as "you can't do [something], maybe this is just not possible for you?" If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    It is prohibited for groups of players to target and ridicule a specific player. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    * The above act involves an excessive amount of criticism/condemnation. Players may not denounce another player. If you feel a player is causing an issue, please file a report.


    ・Expressions that unilaterally reject another person's opinion
    (no details given)

    ・Expressions that compel a playing style

    (Excerpt):
    Examples of a non-violation:

    "I think [duty/content] will go more smoothly if we do [something], so I want to try doing it this way, is that okay with everyone?"

    (In response to an opinion) "I understand your opinion, but I think I can do better with [something], what do you think?"

    (Full Details):
    Key Points
    It is prohibited to force personal views or disregard the opinions of others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

    It is prohibited to make statements such as:

    "There's no way we can clear this with [suggestion]."
    "Big pulls are normal here, so do it!"
    "I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions."
    "I'm not asking for your opinion."


    Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, and online video or streaming services.

    ■ Point 1
    Respecting the opinions of others and expressing your own opinions in the form of a "suggestion" does not constitute a violation.

    For example, it is not a violation to suggest one's own opinion/policy or to present a counterproposal to an opinion, as shown in the following "Example of a non-violation." However, in the "Example of a violation,” you are trying to impose your play style on others by unilaterally excluding their opinions without respecting theirs, which is considered a violation.

    Example 1
    Example of a violation:

    "We can only beat [duty/content] by using [something]. You can't do it any other way, so stop doing that!"

    Example of a non-violation:

    "I think [duty/content] will go more smoothly if we do [something], so I want to try doing it this way, is that okay with everyone?"


    Example 2
    Example of a violation:

    (In response to an opinion) "Your idea is ridiculous, what are you talking about!?."

    Example of a non-violation:

    (In response to an opinion) "I understand your opinion, but I think I can do better with [something], what do you think?"


    ■ Point 2
    Expressing your wishes in the form of a request, as in the following example, does not constitute a violation.

    "I'm getting attacked by the enemies, can you put on your stance?"
    "It would be great if you could focus on healing because I'm in trouble!"


    *When offering suggestions or making requests, it's important to include your reasoning. Making suggestions/requests without a clear understanding of the reason often leads the other person to misunderstand your intention. Additionally, making suggestions or requests does not necessarily mean that they must be accepted. When your suggestion/request is rejected, you cannot then criticize or blame others, pressure others or otherwise refuse to respect their opinion, or persistently repeat the same suggestion/request or otherwise attempt to impose your playstyle on others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.



    The lack of in game resources though is spot on.
    (2)
    Last edited by kaynide; 07-07-2023 at 12:46 PM.

  5. #5
    Player
    Deo14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2022
    Location
    In your walls
    Posts
    504
    Character
    Thea Shinri
    World
    Raiden
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by kaynide View Post
    snip
    The problem is that all of this is so complex and entangled that people would rather give up and say nothing than risk punishment for choosing the wrong words, even though their intentions were good. The existence of a supposed 3-strike system for punishment, coupled with the inability to clear one's records, makes attempting to help others seem risky and not worth the hassle.

    Just to clarify why this policy seems entangled to me. For example "it should be treated as advice only and not something that must be followed." this is just confusing, because most jobs, do have objectively only one way to do things. How pedantic this definition is? If I say that you must get rid of debuff by Esuna (which is only way), does it break ToS? Technically, you can just let it run out. What if I personally don't know other way? Do I need to have perfect game knowledge? English in not my native language, will this be considered if I word something slightly wrong? Simply replacing "should" with "must" will break this policy. If GMs will give you some benefit of doubt because english is not your first language, does it mean that others can abuse it? This and many more makes it seem to me that it's just not worth criticizing or correcting someone.
    (3)
    Last edited by Deo14; 07-07-2023 at 10:23 PM.

  6. #6
    Player
    kaynide's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,881
    Character
    Kris Goldenshield
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Deo14 View Post
    The problem is that all of this is so complex and entangled that people would rather give up and say nothing than risk punishment for choosing the wrong words, even though their intentions were good. The existence of a supposed 3-strike system for punishment, coupled with the inability to clear one's records, makes attempting to help others seem risky and not worth the hassle.

    Just to clarify why this policy seems entangled to me. For example "it should be treated as advice only and not something that must be followed." this is just confusing, because most jobs, do have objectively only one way to do things. How pedantic this definition is? If I say that you can get rid debuff by Esuna (which is only way), does it break ToS? Technically, you can just let it run out. What if I personally don't know other way? Do I need to have perfect game knowledge? English in not my native language, will this be considered if I word something slightly wrong? Simply replacing "should" with "must" will break this policy. If GMs will give you some benefit of doubt because english is not your first language, does it mean that others can abuse it? This and many more makes it seem to me that it's just not worth criticizing or correcting someone.
    I mean, sure maybe, but just because some rule/policy feels intimidating to read/understand is not an excuse for not following them/making an effort to understand and comply. American Taxes come to mind.

    The key thing is just what you're saying- it takes very little effort to word a sentence in a way that is appropriate. Moreover, if you read the rest of the ToS, it says the GMs evaluate the situation in entirety (as much as they can, anyway), and not just by a single sentence.

    So, "This debuff can only be removed by Esuna. Could you please use it?" is vastly different from "This debuff can only be removed by Esuna. Why aren't you using it!?"

    Similarly, it's easy to apply customer service-talk to make things more polite; aka "You have to use Iron Will to keep Enmity" can easily just be "The Iron Will ability allows you to keep Enmity. Can you turn it on?"

    And even then, you can easily just add a "Sorry, English is not my native language" somewhere. Or, alternatively, there is an auto-translate system.



    TL;DR, they aren't really critical of single-line sentences so much as barrages of verbal abuse and/or they do look at the whole situation and get a sense of whether it's just a misunderstanding or actual unnecessary rudeness.
    (0)
    Last edited by kaynide; 07-07-2023 at 10:23 PM.

  7. #7
    Player
    Deo14's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2022
    Location
    In your walls
    Posts
    504
    Character
    Thea Shinri
    World
    Raiden
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by kaynide View Post
    I mean, sure maybe, but just because some rule/policy feels intimidating to read/understand is not an excuse for not following them/making an effort to understand and comply. American Taxes come to mind.

    The key thing is just what you're saying- it takes very little effort to word a sentence in a way that is appropriate. Moreover, if you read the rest of the ToS, it says the GMs evaluate the situation in entirety (as much as they can, anyway), and not just by a single sentence.

    So, "This debuff can only be removed by Esuna. Could you please use it?" is vastly different from "This debuff can only be removed by Esuna. Why aren't you using it!?"

    Similarly, it's easy to apply customer service-talk to make things more polite; aka "You have to use Iron Will to keep Enmity" can easily just be "The Iron Will ability allows you to keep Enmity. Can you turn it on?"

    And even then, you can easily just add a "Sorry, English is not my native language" somewhere. Or, alternatively, there is an auto-translate system.



    TL;DR, they aren't really critical of single-line sentences so much as barrages of verbal abuse and/or they do look at the whole situation and get a sense of whether it's just a misunderstanding or actual unnecessary rudeness.
    Well, yes, but my point is that if you do understand all policies around it, then I personally concluded that it's not worth it for me. Sure, you can just sprinkle some "please", "mind you if..." or other sweet nothings, but then there is factor of response it can generate, and potentially generate a conflict. Some people will have their ego in a way of criticism. Just some hypothetical scenario:

    "If you mind, could you use Cure 2 instead? It's better in all ways than Cure 1"

    "It's literally cheaper than Cure 2 and I can keep tank up with only that"

    "That's because he doesn't pull W2W, since he doubts you are capable of keeping him alive"

    "Are you calling me bad? You know, I'm healer, I think I know better about healing than some SAM"

    Now what? It achieved nothing, but made me want to slap that egoistical motherfucker. Now I'm tilted, and if I try point out how dumb he is, he will just report me and I'll be (rightfully) in wrong. If I'll keep talking, then he already made his mind and it will only escalate conflict, others in group will be annoyed and dungeon will turn into a debate. So I'll be forced to shut up to not make situation worse, which is something I hate with passion. If someone is being dick, I want to tell them, but in this game, I can't, so I'll just stick to avoiding anything that could cause a conflict. I learned that not from reading ToS, but from my own experience (nothing involving reports, but infuriating none the less).

    Also, people are simply not trusting authorities. It's nice to say that "GMs will just handle the situation", but where's the guarantee?
    (0)

  8. #8
    Player
    Stormfur's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    The World of Darkness
    Posts
    2,806
    Character
    Hex Pathcrosser
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 72
    It's in my signature.
    (4)
    "We want bunny suits for guys!" -- OK! ✅
    "We want Ishgard housing!" -- OK! ✅
    "We want Viera!" -- OK! ✅
    "We want Cloud's motorcycle!" -- OK! ✅
    "We want Blue Mage!"-- OK! ✅
    "We want the ability to earn past Feast rewards!" - HAHA no that's sacred.

  9. #9
    Player
    Raikai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    3,560
    Character
    Arlo Nine-tails
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Blue Mage can't solo their Log objectives because you can't bloody queue/get credit without a full party.
    (6)

  10. #10
    Player
    BaconBits's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    1,535
    Character
    Arya Diavolos
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 98
    No Burmecians. Give me my graceful rattes SE.
    (2)

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