PvP: WAR adjustments (suggestion)

[Post]

If that's your angle, basically none of the jobs get their big damage from sustaining combos other than like, MNK cuz of Phantom Rush and PLD cuz of its staying power.

I totally get the moment to moment gameplay of 123 not feeling satisfying, but isn't that because it's specifically filler? It's more of a novelty for jobs that DO get something out of it, frankly. WAR is not the odd man out in that regard. Just downtime till you set up your next big Rend play.

Besides, you'd lose a little sustain with an extra GCD in your combo before the next storms path, too. Maybe it could just shave like 3 seconds off of Onslaught or something? It's more damage, and more mobility, and it'd help set up hard swaps more easily, which is already pretty well into WAR's wheelhouse imo. Though that perk feels like it'd make more sense for GNB given how important Rough Divide is for them.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

If that's your angle, basically none of the jobs get their big damage from sustaining combos other than like, MNK cuz of Phantom Rush and PLD cuz of its staying power.

I totally get the moment to moment gameplay of 123 not feeling satisfying, but isn't that because it's specifically filler? It's more of a novelty for jobs that DO get something out of it, frankly. WAR is not the odd man out in that regard. Just downtime till you set up your next big Rend play.

I think there is a misunderstanding. For one my main gripe isn't filler not building additional damage skills in a vacuum, it is when a mix of the following occurs:

• Downtime between cannot be reasonably filled with other combative actions
• The effective burst / combat time is quite short vs the filler time
• The filler / 123 combo having zero synergy or kit interaction

Sure might be a tad picky, but this is just explaining where I come from with my hate for the Storm's Path combo (and others as you soon read). Filler doesn't need to be boring and non-interactive to be filler.

As for your comment for how it is a novelty... not quite. Here is a list I put together. O marks what type of filler I find quite alright, ? where I have mixed feelings but can live with it, X is where I have criticism in terms of gameplay flow (NOT HOW THE JOB PERFORMS):

• [ O ] PLD: Combo grants Atonement, also available with short CD Intervene and mid CD Shield Bash. Part of your downtime can also be filled with Guardian -> Guard utility.
• [ X ] WAR: Combo is barren, your burst sits in an awkward position of Primal Rend at 15s as GCD, Orogeny as 20s as oGCD and Chaotic Cyclone stuck behind Bloodwhetting. The height of your downtime is reapplying Onslaught.
• [ O ] DRK: Soul Eater Combo is barren, however excess HP from Soul Eater, Quietus and Salted Earth can be spent at will on Shadowbringer -> Bloodspiller rather than waiting on damage cooldowns to return
• [ O ] GNB: Combo grants Burst Strike + Continuation + it has the full Gnashing Fang combo + Continuation combo for filler before Double Down bursts
  .
• [ O/? ] DRG: Wheeling Thrust Combo is barren, however off-burst Heaven's Thrust from short CD High Jump is available as well as Chaotic Spring on various times if you choose to do so
• [ ? ] RPR: Combo is barren, at most you use the finisher for a "very" sad 3-gcd Death Warrant if you mess up along the way. Not a fan of this one but I suppose your signature Voidsent form makes up for it with being frequently up.
• [ O ] MNK: Combo builds Phantom Rush as you said, but also extends Riddle of Wind GCD speed boost, has natively low GCD timer of 2.00s and Snap Punch + Demolish hit harder than "finishers".
• [ O ] SAM: Entire combo can be transformed into AOE variants with a Bind, double damage or lifesteal attached to them, at your own leisure.
• [ O ] NIN: Combo is barren, but a combo finisher under Bunshin can reach higher damage than Fuma Shuriken. Also Fuma Shuriken recharges fast and the more likely filler.
  .
• [ ? ] BRD: Powerful Shot is not "wow", but it does reduce the recharge time on Empyreal Arrows, so there is "some" interactivity.
• [ ? ] MCH: Blast Charge is... "something". It builds to Overheated, but honestly that one feels terrible for how long you have to build it.
• [ O ] DNC: Combo is relatively basic, but at least interacts with En Avant to build up to Saber Dance.
  .
• [ O ] BLM: Building to Flare / Freeze and debuff stacks is literally a core mechanic in this job that you do regardless if bursting or filler.
• [ X ] SMN: This one... is Ruin III if you spent all your Favour skills (Crimson Cyclone, Slipstream, Mountain Buster) and Festers. As mentioned before, I do not think this is something to use as a good template.
• [ O ] RDM: Filler time is minimal with 2-4 GCDs at most before next melee combo and / or Resolution is available. Also dualcast, so there is some job mechanic.

Not going into Healers, they have a whole different game going on with their general team utility.

Besides, you'd lose a little sustain with an extra GCD in your combo before the next storms path, too. Maybe it could just shave like 3 seconds off of Onslaught or something? It's more damage, and more mobility, and it'd help set up hard swaps more easily, which is already pretty well into WAR's wheelhouse imo. Though that perk feels like it'd make more sense for GNB given how important Rough Divide is for them.

You'd gain the sustain again for replacing a Heavy Swing and / or Maim in your Bloodwhetting window with an 8000 dmg Fell Cleave. The Onslaught idea I'd be on board, if it wasnt for essentially costing yourself more HP over time, which is costly outside of the Bloodwhetting Window, which is also your burst window (if you use Chaotic Cyclone in your burst). The hardswap thing is true though, it would turn out less predictable.

[Valence]

[*][ ? ] MCH: Blast Charge is... "something". It builds to Overheated, but honestly that one feels terrible for how long you have to build it.

I more or less agree with the list, but as a MCH main I can't say I find it terrible. What feels terrible is losing the stacks, sure (I wouldn't mind an additional effect on analysis that resets the heat stack timer). The thing is that you usually need the 5 hits else all your tools are never ready and especially not WF, so you overheat for nothing. This was a huge problem of the job at 6.1 release when WF was on a higher recast (25s), as WF was always a little late when you had full uptime and it was awkward af. Overheating into the void or just having to slow down damage...

If you drop the amount of hits required to overheat, then the job becomes borderline OP, and would also need a reduced WF recast once more because otherwise it's literally no gain.

I like this mechanic, especially since the burst is powerful (but only with Spite on top of it unfortunately). But I'd agree that it doesn't happen enough in comparison to jobs like RDM/DRG.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I more or less agree with the list, but as a MCH main I can't say I find it terrible. What feels terrible is losing the stacks, sure (I wouldn't mind an additional effect on analysis that resets the heat stack timer). The thing is that you usually need the 5 hits else all your tools are never ready and especially not WF, so you overheat for nothing. This was a huge problem of the job at 6.1 release when WF was on a higher recast (25s), as WF was always a little late when you had full uptime and it was awkward af. Overheating into the void or just having to slow down damage...

If you drop the amount of hits required to overheat, then the job becomes borderline OP, and would also need a reduced WF recast once more because otherwise it's literally no gain.

I like this mechanic, especially since the burst is powerful (but only with Spite on top of it unfortunately). But I'd agree that it doesn't happen enough in comparison to jobs like RDM/DRG.

Yeah I know. That's why I honestly labelled it with a questionmark, I felt not sure on that so only gave my.personal gut feeling rather than being technical about it.

Maybe they could attempt Overheat at 4 stacks rather than 5 but honestly wouldnt touch it.

[Llynethil]

I don't like machinist blast mechanic for pvp honestly, the stack timer is fairly short and it's a dead skill when facing with a melee job in your face, noone is gonna use a skill that does bleh damage and slows you down, it's a dead skill whenever a melee jumps you essentially plus it really is only used when you don't have something available from the drill combo pool.

At least bard's crappy basic shot changing to something actually good due to other skills and it hastens your stacking of empyrial.

As for warrior, I rather would see the hp loss on their skills removed first and then see what can be adjusted after that tbh.
And make mon be able to be purged which is the biggest problem with not being to lifesteal honestly, I don't mind dancer or reaper lb preventing me from using the aoe heal, those are lb's and it's fine they prevent it, but a basic skill, hell no.

[Valence]

I don't like machinist blast mechanic for pvp honestly, the stack timer is fairly short and it's a dead skill when facing with a melee job in your face, noone is gonna use a skill that does bleh damage and slows you down, it's a dead skill whenever a melee jumps you essentially plus it really is only used when you don't have something available from the drill combo pool.

At least bard's crappy basic shot changing to something actually good due to other skills and it hastens your stacking of empyrial.

It's the problem of most ranged DPS (bar DNC and RDM). They get hard countered by half the job roster. The blast mechanic is not inherently a problem with MCH alone. You have a lot of CC options to help you out, but any ranged DPS in particular MCH, BRD, BLM and SMN are in the same kind of bag as far as I'm concerned (BLM can teleport at least...).

[Llynethil]

It's the problem of most ranged DPS (bar DNC and RDM). They get hard countered by half the job roster. The blast mechanic is not inherently a problem with MCH alone. You have a lot of CC options to help you out, but any ranged DPS in particular MCH, BRD, BLM and SMN are in the same kind of bag as far as I'm concerned (BLM can teleport at least...).

I wonder if for example if you wildfire something, you automatically go into blastspam mode no matter what for 3 shots would be too strong or not, would be a cool interaction to actually get it activated without the slow stacking while giving you some mobility back to kite backwards if your drill combo's are on cd.

[Elfidan]

I like this idea. It's a nice catch since most WAR just hang out waiting for their CC chain to come off cooldown outside of the LB window.

The thing about ranged DPS is they have all the annoying hinderance debuffs which can be used to retreat from most situations. The problem is people use them offensively one hundred percent of the time instead of saving them and gauging use for offense or utility. Nearly every time I have died to the blast effect on BRD or MCH it was my fault for missing a position or overreaching thinking my team was down to push. I think DNC's En Avant should be changed to not cancel sprint though.

[Valence]

The thing about ranged DPS is they have all the annoying hinderance debuffs which can be used to retreat from most situations. The problem is people use them offensively one hundred percent of the time instead of saving them and gauging use for offense or utility.

Except for Repelling Shot on BRD that can be kept for self (unless you're really adventurous and like jumping into the fray to use it offensively on burst targets ofc), it's literally griefing not to use them to secure kills (including Wanderer's to defend allies). They're not here to defend yourself, even though they'll help in a pinch, and tbh they do a mediocre job at it because attackers can shrug one off with purify, and gap close back at your throat. If you have a second one to burn, it helps you tremendously, but that's not a given (aka being on Primed Bioblaster on MCH conveniently when attacked, then Primed Anchor, or just BLM sleep into freeze, but it takes time to set up, time you're not sprinting away).

The fact of the matter is simple, all those ranged jobs have very little defensive capability whatsoever (bonus point for SMN's on demand shield though), which is why they crumble to death when jumped by melees or red mages. Some people will tell you to use the turret to defend yourself, and that's not dumb if you have actual allies next to you to help you because otherwise you'll still gonna get trashed hard by forsaking the only thing that will help you on a normal basis, which is to pop sprint and play cat and mouse.

Speaking of RDM actually, this is the only ranged DPS job that's squishy that I never felt threatened with at all. It has incredible mobility with gap closers (jump to another enemy to get out of a bad spot), and insanely long back jump (zoom out of a bad spot), and you have 2 charges of both to boot. On top of it the job is designed to duel a little (like SAM), and will output a really threatening amount of damage to any attacker. On top of it you have an AoE bind/silence as well to get out of trouble.

In any case you're right, you use CC for other things that retreating, which means they'll not always be available.

I've been playing more and more jobs recently with the actual intent to learn them, and since I guess I was mostly maining ranged like MCH/BLM, I can see how much night and day it actually is, and why all the meta jobs are NOT ranged DPS (except RDM). SMN gets a pass because of the untelegraphed AoE LB that just crushes teams and turns table all the time but that's its saving grace.

Nearly every time I have died to the blast effect on BRD or MCH it was my fault for missing a position or overreaching thinking my team was down to push. I think DNC's En Avant should be changed to not cancel sprint though.

Being punished because you're casting a blast instead of moving is a thing. Being punished because you're casting it and therefore cannot guard when you could have otherwise, is a drawback of the mechanic, but I'm fine with it. It's part of its identity.

My problem isn't the casts, my problem is the lopsided relationship most ranged DPS have with the rest of the job roster and hos it works against the "role agnostic" advertisement of the new pvp. It can be very miserable if good players decide to rush you down. One can argue that you can bait them into doing it, but that's not good players then. Most of them just lurk around and wait for engagements, putting you into a neverending awkward spot:
- If you stay close to your team just behind them, you get harassed by frontline melees like tanks, AND their ranged because you're a juicy target, and essentially turn into a melee yourself without their stronger defensives, which gives you 5s of survability before you have to retreat and lose all uptime (and get mowed down by an ambushing melee down the line btw).
- If you take some distance, you immediately get murdered by a melee DPS/RDM that was waiting for that precise moment.

Like, I'm not saying it's unworkable, or that it's so binary, but sometimes it DO feel that way.

If anything, have you seen a game full of ranged DPS (and maybe a healer) vs a team with 2-3 melees? It's rarely pretty.