PvP: WAR adjustments (suggestion)

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Welcome to this thread! This will be about a few ideas I have to make PvP Warrior have a bit more quality of life and some slight buffs. This is the first suggestion of mine of one of potentially a few more to come.

To preface this, I know WAR is already in a decent spot in regards to Crystalline Conflict and chances are you might see the power of the job to be bigger than I do, however there are some things that I wish to change to make the job feel more fluid to play. Feel free to discuss the ideas and explain what you might do differently.


Storm's Path

• The effect of "Grants 'Fell Cleave ready' upon execution of Storm's Path" has been added. (Duration: 15s {6-10s}, up to a maximum of 30s 20s)

// Base effect duration is in line with combo timer expiring Adjusted durations, in hindsight you could bank that Fell Cleave ready for too long.

Fell Cleave

• Potency changed from 12000 to 8000.
• Added "Inner Release potency: 12000"
• Changed "Can only be executed under the effect of 'Inner Release'" to "Can only be executed under the effect of 'Fell Cleave Ready' or 'Inner Release'"

// Basically to let the Storm's Path combo to have purpose to store a use of Fell Cleave, but at a weaker rate.
// This is similar to PLD gaining Sword Oath and GNB gaining Powder Barrel upon completion of the combo.
// If "Inner Release" is active, then "Fell Cleave Ready" won't be consumed.

Primal Scream

• Added the effect "Extends 'Fell Cleave Ready' duration by 15 seconds."

// This is to ensure that you retain your stack of "Fell Cleave Ready" for the 8000 potency Fell Cleave after "Inner Release" ends.

Bloodwhetting

• Removed the additional effect: "Stem the Tide: Creates a barrier around self that absorbs damage totaling 10% of your maximum HP (Duration: 10s)"
• Added the additional effect: "Stem the Flow: Reduces damage taken by {10-15}% (Duration: 5s)"

// The purpose of this change is to provide a similar mitigation effect to other tanks, but at a lesser duration and rate since WAR already has Orogeny granting -10% damage dealt to enemies it hits.
// The value of how much it mitigates especially when paired with the lifesteal effect of Bloodwhetting should be greater than the 10% HP shield, which was capped at 6300 ShieldHP and 7560 HP respectively.
// The values are in {curly brackets} as I am unsure if 15% might be too much, so it is listed as a variable value.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

I understand where this is all coming from, but I think the big differences between the tank kits is what makes them great in the 6.1 PvP system. I don't want to see tanks and their play patterns homogenized like they are in PvE.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I understand where this is all coming from, but I think the big differences between the tank kits is what makes them great in the 6.1 PvP system. I don't want to see tanks and their play patterns homogenized like they are in PvE.

Understandable, which is why I don't necessarily wish to see a lot of changes like these, however the Bloodwhetting change stems mainly from the criticism of WAR being extremely squishy the moment they get CCed, as the lifesteal provides zero protection. Considering you have spend 10% of current HP to use Onslaught and Orogeny and Orogeny having limited range vs for example Horrid Roar (DRG), they live and die by their AOE GCDs and CC landing or not.

As for the Fell Cleave change, I find 123 combos with zero benefit extremely uninspired. Dark Knight technically falls in a similar category regarding Souleater combo, however their access to Bloodspiller is tied to using Shadowbringer rather than a Limit Break.

I am not as much of a fan as homogenization as the next person, but access to a weaker version of Fell Cleave outside of Limit Break seems at very least more interesting than <nothing>.

ADDENDUM (edit): I think with those two changes applied to give WAR a bit more staying power and gameplay flow, all four tanks should still play very different from each other.

[Shikiseki]

Well SMN in particular could sing a whole song about only having ruin when they exhausted their attack pool so I think WAR is fine. The 1-2-3 combos are usually filler anyway to do weave in between the other fancy skills.

I feel like making fell cleave accessible after 1-2-3 would actually take the novelty out of the big damage the skill is usually associated with like it would make it feel less special.
That said, if we got strictly with the Job fantasy, WAR should definitely be in line of Sage as in being a disruptive high DPS disguised as a Tank - think of berserkers deliberately lowering defences in favour of higher damage which I think should stay that way.

If you want a quirky gimmick to the job 1-2-3 (like the PvE version did had a pacification at the end of their berserk mode), you could trigger a mini berserk state after 1-2-3 where you'd only have access to one powerful single target skill like Butcher's Block+HP drain for 3s to really emphasize the Warrior temporarily losing control and go all out while still maintaining some sort of sustain instead of shields. You could also make them immune to stun within berserk mode if that's your concern to get that health back.

Ofc to counterbalance this risky mode, you'd also be given the option to release your anger with something like Overpower in an aoe cone to immediately cancel out the berserk mode in case you don't want to enter it every time you finish your 1-2-3

(totally not an excuse to see Butcher's Block again...)

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Well SMN in particular could sing a whole song about only having ruin when they exhausted their attack pool so I think WAR is fine. The 1-2-3 combos are usually filler anyway to do weave in between the other fancy skills.

I feel like making fell cleave accessible after 1-2-3 would actually take the novelty out of the big damage the skill is usually associated with like it would make it feel less special.
That said, if we got strictly with the Job fantasy, WAR should definitely be in line of Sage as in being a disruptive high DPS disguised as a Tank - think of berserkers deliberately lowering defences in favour of higher damage which I think should stay that way.

If you want a quirky gimmick to the job 1-2-3 (like the PvE version did had a pacification at the end of their berserk mode), you could trigger a mini berserk state after 1-2-3 where you'd only have access to one powerful single target skill like Butcher's Block+HP drain for 3s to really emphasize the Warrior temporarily losing control and go all out while still maintaining some sort of sustain instead of shields.

Ofc to counterbalance this risky mode, you'd also be given the option to release your anger with something like Overpower in an aoe cone to immediately cancel out the berserk mode in case you don't want to enter it every time you finish your 1-2-3

(totally not an excuse to see Butcher's Block again...)

I'm not sure if I'd take Summoner as a great comparison to why having a boring, uninteractive filler is a good reason why Warrior should be the same - yes the numbers speak for themselves, but in terms of gameplay SMN feels sort of lacking to me as the Caster who jumps in for a big damage engagement and use some extra CC while doing so, Red Mage fills that niche more for me in terms of fun.

Short, one job having boring filler isn't a reason why another should, even if the numbers are good.

Ill be honest, Fell Cleave being only accessible during Inner Release is very boring to me. For me the big WOW and novelty of that Limit Break isn't the access to Fell Cleave, it is the double damage of Chaotic Cyclone + Primal Rend as well as the enhanced HP boosting Orogeny's attackpower by up to 20%.

Could the 123-combo bonus be another weaponskill like Butcher's Block or Inner Beast/Chaos instead? Sure it could, but I'm being minimalistic on purpose so a change like that could be reasonably implemented without requiring extra resources (coding more skills into pvp kits rather than changing interaction is factually more codework). If we had an expansion to 16-button pvp again though, different story - I'd be massively on board with that as we'd have more space in kits.

[Post]

I dunno, WAR has a lot of control compared to other melee jobs. It doesn't have an oGCD stun like PLD, SAM and MNK, but in exchange it gets an AoE one kinda like BRD vs RDM's silence.

Given that it's easier to stick to a target than your average bulky melee, and even keep it in range of your allies, I think increasing its personal sustained damage much more would be unfair.

Their Bloodwhetting should probably be able to shield them through a Primal Scream cast into the Chaotic Cyclone or Primal Rend follow up at least given they don't have the luxury of like, RPR stopping everyone or BLM being able to LB outside of line of sight to stay safe. If you can't survive that short a span against a good team, that could probably use some tuning, especially because you get CC immunity for that time.

I get what they were going for with the 10% hp shield from whetting because Scream gives you more HP, but that's what, 6250 hp shield normally? 7.4k with Thrill? RPR gets an effective 70.5k HP alone if it goes in with Crest up, and it can basically retreat for free. Maybe it could be at least 8k flat like TBN given you can't put it on others. I think it should keep you just living long enough to get your '16k HP x targets hit' GCD heal to get the ball rolling, barring, you know, stepping out and eating 3 preemptive lbs before you can get in yourself.

I'm still phrasing all this in the context of CC, but outside of that I don't think it's reasonable to expect survivability or even sustained damage. The more players on the field, the more valuable Blota and Primal Rend become, after all, and WAR has always held that niche for pvp. DRK only supplants it with the new multi holmgang, but even then you can just Rend in after your co-drk drags, slapping on damage at least if they purify, and immediately breaking their guards if they don't.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I dunno, WAR has a lot of control compared to other melee jobs. It doesn't have an oGCD stun like PLD, SAM and MNK, but in exchange it gets an AoE one kinda like BRD vs RDM's silence.

I mean... does it? PLD theoretically also has the AOE Heavy from the Sheltron bomb albeit unreliable, SAM has stun + bind, MNK has stun + knockback, NIN while having to use resources for it does have easily usable stuns and a more difficult to use Heavy puddle. Reaper sits only on Heavy outside of LB which comes with Hysteria and Bind as options, GNB has theirs behind the LB but that LB rips, 3s AOE stuns and GNB can speedboost with Rough Divide. The only melee without CC is Dragoon, but that job just hits like a train and has Horrid Roar and great mobility options for self peeling.

The main saving grace is honestly Blota regarding sticking enemies close to you.

Given that it's easier to stick to a target than your average bulky melee, and even keep it in range of your allies, I think increasing its personal sustained damage much more would be unfair.

Having a quasi 4th combostep being 8000 dmg Fell Cleave still means you have to do a full 123 combo first and is hardly a massive gain compared to what other jobs can dish out as sustained damage - just using tanks as an example, they got a whole cartridge combo going for them on top of generating Powder Barrel from 123 and Draw & Junction + Continuation on all of that. Paladin has their Atonements readily available via Intervene and Shield Bash. Dark Knight literally doesnt even care about 123 considering SHB -> Bloodspiller is readily available, so that extra HP from completing 123 is basically SHB resource - if they even stay in for a combo.

Sorry, I don't think the damage gain from having this would be that massive given what other jobs have and how flexibly they have it on top.

Their Bloodwhetting should probably be able to shield them through a Primal Scream cast into the Chaotic Cyclone or Primal Rend follow up at least given they don't have the luxury of like, RPR stopping everyone or BLM being able to LB outside of line of sight to stay safe. If you can't survive that short a span against a good team, that could probably use some tuning, especially because you get CC immunity for that time.

I get what they were going for with the 10% hp shield from whetting because Scream gives you more HP, but that's what, 6250 hp shield normally? 7.4k with Thrill? RPR gets an effective 70.5k HP alone if it goes in with Crest up, and it can basically retreat for free. Maybe it could be at least 8k flat like TBN given you can't put it on others. I think it should keep you just living long enough to get your '16k HP x targets hit' GCD heal to get the ball rolling, barring, you know, stepping out and eating 3 preemptive lbs before you can get in yourself.

I'm still phrasing all this in the context of CC, but outside of that I don't think it's reasonable to expect survivability or even sustained damage. The more players on the field, the more valuable Blota and Primal Rend become, after all, and WAR has always held that niche for pvp. DRK only supplants it with the new multi holmgang, but even then you can just Rend in after your co-drk drags, slapping on damage at least if they purify, and immediately breaking their guards if they don't.

Bloodwhetting also comes with the hefty price tag of having part of your burst tied to it, so for what little mitigation it provides right now feels sorta meh. The 6300/7560 HP shield is honestly a joke compared to what other melees bring to the table for that (except NIN as theirs actually costs them damage resources).

As I said, the lifesteal is great, but that is what it is - lifesteal. It can be countered to absolute shit with a MCH turret providing 6000 shield to people inside it on a damage pulse, SGE can provide Pneuma shields and any form of self shielding or mitigation cripples this so much more.

Also I am purely talking in the context of CC - as much as I'd try, I cannot reasonably give suggestions how to balance for CC & FL/RW at the same time, which is why I don't.

[Valence]

Understandable, which is why I don't necessarily wish to see a lot of changes like these, however the Bloodwhetting change stems mainly from the criticism of WAR being extremely squishy the moment they get CCed, as the lifesteal provides zero protection. Considering you have spend 10% of current HP to use Onslaught and Orogeny and Orogeny having limited range vs for example Horrid Roar (DRG), they live and die by their AOE GCDs and CC landing or not.

As for the Fell Cleave change, I find 123 combos with zero benefit extremely uninspired. Dark Knight technically falls in a similar category regarding Souleater combo, however their access to Bloodspiller is tied to using Shadowbringer rather than a Limit Break.

I am not as much of a fan as homogenization as the next person, but access to a weaker version of Fell Cleave outside of Limit Break seems at very least more interesting than <nothing>.

ADDENDUM (edit): I think with those two changes applied to give WAR a bit more staying power and gameplay flow, all four tanks should still play very different from each other.

Some melees also don't have % mitigation. I'd rather see them double down on WAR's identity, maybe increasing the life steal, maybe adding more life steal, idk. Or combine it with bloodwhetting like in pve as well..

I also think that the CC immunity during LB plays very well with a lifesteal type of mitigation. Out of it, I don't mind the fell cleave finisher on the combo yeh.

[Post]

If that's your angle, basically none of the jobs get their big damage from sustaining combos other than like, MNK cuz of Phantom Rush and PLD cuz of its staying power.

I totally get the moment to moment gameplay of 123 not feeling satisfying, but isn't that because it's specifically filler? It's more of a novelty for jobs that DO get something out of it, frankly. WAR is not the odd man out in that regard. Just downtime till you set up your next big Rend play.

Besides, you'd lose a little sustain with an extra GCD in your combo before the next storms path, too. Maybe it could just shave like 3 seconds off of Onslaught or something? It's more damage, and more mobility, and it'd help set up hard swaps more easily, which is already pretty well into WAR's wheelhouse imo. Though that perk feels like it'd make more sense for GNB given how important Rough Divide is for them.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Some melees also don't have % mitigation. I'd rather see them double down on WAR's identity, maybe increasing the life steal, maybe adding more life steal, idk. Or combine it with bloodwhetting like in pve as well..

I also think that the CC immunity during LB plays very well with a lifesteal type of mitigation. Out of it, I don't mind the fell cleave finisher on the combo yeh.

Yeah I guess having something other than the mitigation % could work too, though honestly for reasons I mentioned throughout, Im not a fan on enhancing the lifesteal given how it might either spiral way harder or be borderline useless if enemies deploy HP shields. A bigger Stem the Tide could work.

...or Miracle of Nature not piercing every CC immunity known to man.