Concerns about Content Finder, Drops, and Difficulty Settings for EG.

[Maxthunder]

Yea, I think you need to chill out a bit. Your kind of coming off as an elitist. Everyone that pays for this game should be able to "FULLY" experience the entirety of the EG content. We want this game to be inviting to the casual players, and lets face it, casual players are the vast majority of subs in an MMO. Thats a fact. I myself lean more towards the hardcore gaming, but I am not so selfish as to only want the best for myself to the potential ruin of this game.

And I cant beleive another person came into this thread with the skewed view that EG content isnt hard. Have you even played other MMOs? I have never played an MMO with harder EG content (from the current generation of games). Compared to FFXI and WoW and just about anything else out there, FFXIV is ridiculously harder. I would say that all the primal battles and Dungeons (with the exception of Darkhold currently) range in difficulty from hard to too Hard for the average MMO player. As I said before either you are a badass or you are a liar, because thats the only excuse I can think of for you to call any of the content (aside from DH) easy and suitable for the casual player. Its not just about drop rate.

FFXIV failed horribly once already. Few games get a 2nd chance. FFXIV 2.0 has one more chance to get it right, the game needs to be nearly freaking perfect. Period. And I dont think anything I have suggested would kill gameplay or hurt hardcore players. If you think I have, then you are being wholly unreasonable and willfully ignorant.

As for the difference in gear from one difficulty tier to the next, I dont know what SE is planning. I just think they need to be cautious about how they approach it. The example I gave was just that, an example. However, anyone that thinks they deserve to get gear that is vastly superior to the Normal mode gear, are not grounded in reality. Hard mode is a step up from Normal, therefore the gear should only be a step up. Not night and day. I promise you I have many casual friends and family that will not play this game if you grind normal dungeons and get gear that makes you feel like you are being punished for not being hardcore enough. And it would potentially be a death nail to this game. If you think I'm exagerating, youve been caught up in the FFXIV EG scene for too long and have begun drinking the Kool-aid.

I believe in earning what ever reward it is. I understand some players cant do it for whatever reason, but even the worst players should beable to clear endgame content w/o there being a baby mode. None of the current content is HARD, even garuda isnt hard once you understand what needs to be done. The issue is players need to be on the same page when they do garuda or any content. Now just waiting till the casuals (and there will be some) get to ifrit extreme, this forums gonna light up like a christmas tree.

I dont care if your hardcore or casual, because there is no reason either group can not clear content that is HARD. Will it take some work yes, but when you finally actually complete the content most if not all will look back and say "that wasnt hard" or "that was easy". Now even if some 1 has a few hours a day there is still no reason that they should not beable to clear any content. Will it take longer to clear yes but they still will beable to clear harder content. The way I see it from all the complaints is players want things easier, and honestly you cant get any easier than the content we have right now.

I have done every piece of endgame in FFXIV yes at 1st its tough because players need to learn it, but once you learn it, its another story. I have players say hamlets are hard but they are not hard, they are a cake walk. Nothing is hard once you learn how to complete it, yes it might be annoying, it may still be challenging, but you will complete it again.


Your last statement: ( I promise you I have many casual friends and family that will not play this game if you grind normal dungeons and get gear that makes you feel like you are being punished for not being hardcore enough. And it would potentially be a death nail to this game. )

This statement has been addressed by yoshi and it dose in fact relate to drop rates and unfortunatly we all have to wait till 2.0. As I see it some casuals are mad because of this and I know some hardcore who have the same issue, and it is all because the DEV's for right now have chosen to keep the drop rates that are so low that it isnt funny. Now I ask you what do you think would be the rewards for an easy or a normal mode? I can give you the answer but you wont like it and thats more G5 or grade 5 dark matter. If you want better gear you can craft it and meld materia to it or go for darklight, players already have a choice but instead it seems players just want things easier.

[Dragon]

I don't think folks are getting what Amsai is saying. I'm pretty sure that was a small example. That obviously wouldn't be the only stat -- +3 str derp! -- Let's get a better example:

This is what a normal mode drk/lgt cowl would have -- MP : +120, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +15, Int : +15, Pty : +15, Evasion : -20, Refresh : +3

This is what a hard mode drk/lgt cowl would have --MP : +125, Enfeebling Magic Potency : +18, Int : +18, Pty : +18, Evasion : -18, Refresh : +4

Okay. Now... Playing hardmode and getting all of the pieces of gear with the same differences in stats you see in exhibit B above, you'll find that it's quite the noticable difference from the complete set of normal mode gear's stats. At the same time, it's not an unfair difference.

That wouldn't even be close to a night'n'day example, and honestly wouldn't even be worth doing hardmode for outside of elitist groups that always want their gear maxed. Hell, that's also forgetting the fact that Yoshi has made it clear that U/U gear will never be better than double-melded gear, so even if there was hardcore gear, you can bet it'd be no better than double-melded (or maybe triple-melded) gear.

Ultimately, the complaints should be about the lack of hardcore gear and hardcore content altogether since aside from the relic (which isn't really hardcore, just mostly RNG-inducing aside from Ifrit Extreme), there has been no hardcore content whatsoever. But no, instead, anyone that mentions how hardcore content could be introduced (often enough, even in a manner to make it accessible to the casual playerbase), there is a "casual" player complaining demanding the game completely catering to the casual market while foregoing the fact the game is already centered around a casual playstyle.

[Eliseus]

That wouldn't even be close to a night'n'day example, and honestly wouldn't even be worth doing hardmode for outside of elitist groups that always want their gear maxed. Hell, that's also forgetting the fact that Yoshi has made it clear that U/U gear will never be better than double-melded gear, so even if there was hardcore gear, you can bet it'd be no better than double-melded (or maybe triple-melded) gear.

Ultimately, the complaints should be about the lack of hardcore gear and hardcore content altogether since aside from the relic (which isn't really hardcore, just mostly RNG-inducing aside from Ifrit Extreme), there has been no hardcore content whatsoever. But no, instead, anyone that mentions how hardcore content could be introduced (often enough, even in a manner to make it accessible to the casual playerbase), there is a "casual" player complaining demanding the game completely catering to the casual market while foregoing the fact the game is already centered around a casual playstyle.

I can give you a lot of examples where I would darklight piece over melded piece but if it isn't that obvious to you that's your problem not mine. Also considering the amounts of complaints about the current materia system I wouldn't say that doubled melded will always be better since it may get changed with one day if devs listen to the players.

[Amsai]

I don't see a problem with hard modes either. What I have a problem with is dungeon design that gives no visible rewards and shows no sort of progression, hard modes being THE content instead of a branch of content, and hard mode gear being exponentially more powerful than regular mode gear. That's why I'd suggest Normal Mode, Hard Mode and Hard Mode +1 scaling if you absolutely have to have more than two echelons.

Games like WoW understand this, which is why they're implementing challenge modes for dungeons to see if that provides the challenge the hardcores so desire without upsetting the balance of power (more than the buff-nerf rollercoaster does, anyway).

*puts on Scholar's Mortarboard*

For those who didn't know, Challenge Modes are basically much like our speed runs, but with forced stat caps so that your group doesn't out-level or out-stat the dungeon. The rewards include achievements and gear with unique appearances for transmogrification (no stats). Your rewards are determined by the amount of time it would take to clear the dungeon.

Thank you, at last another reasonable human being. What this guy is saying is completely in line with the norm, and I have to say I mostly agree with him.

Well seeing as they said there will be drops for all difficulties, I don't see the problem.

It all depends on how they implement it. And thats yet to be seen. As a fan of the game and someone who wishes for its success, thats why I made this thread. I want devs to see this thread and make sure they are on the same page as the hearts of the casual audiance in regards to EG content. Thats why this forum was created: to let us, the players, give our feedback and suggestions. I know SE can make great games, but I also know that they have made some bombs and made multiple business blunders over the years. Sometimes I wonder if some of the strange decisions they make are representative of a culture gap or if they are just that out of touch. Whatever the case, any ensight I can help bring to bear is worth the effort. Regardless of what you think of me or my ideas and opinions, I hope you know I have nothing but whats best for the game in mind. I am not trying to kill the fun or rewards of the hardcore player base. SE just needs to be very cautious about how they approach difficulty settings and loot. And frankly I worry about what SE will do sometmes. For instance, I think Behest and HamDef and Caravan Escort are absolutely horrible content, and boring as hell. I was very sad that HamDef didnt turn out more something like Campaign. And its not just that, but a whole lot of little things along the way that give me pause. Sometimes SE makes things that make me want to cry tears of joy, and other times its just tears...... So as long as I have a voice, you're damn right Im gonna use it.

[AmyNeudaiz]

Thank you, at last another reasonable human being. What this guy is saying is completely in line with the norm, and I have to say I mostly agree with him.



It all depends on how they implement it. And thats yet to be seen. As a fan of the game and someone who wishes for its success, thats why I made this thread. I want devs to see this thread and make sure they are on the same page as the hearts of the casual audiance in regards to EG content. Thats why this forum was created: to let us, the players, give our feedback and suggestions. I know SE can make great games, but I also know that they have made some bombs and made multiple business blunders over the years. Sometimes I wonder if some of the strange decisions they make are representative of a culture gap or if they are just that out of touch. Whatever the case, any ensight I can help bring to bear is worth the effort. Regardless of what you think of me or my ideas and opinions, I hope you know I have nothing but whats best for the game in mind. I am not trying to kill the fun or rewards of the hardcore player base. SE just needs to be very cautious about how they approach difficulty settings and loot. And frankly I worry about what SE will do sometmes. For instance, I think Behest and HamDef and Caravan Escort are absolutely horrible content, and boring as hell. I was very sad that HamDef didnt turn out more something like Campaign. And its not just that, but a whole lot of little things along the way that give me pause. Sometimes SE makes things that make me want to cry tears of joy, and other times its just tears...... So as long as I have a voice, you're damn right Im gonna use it.

But your whole point would alienate hardcore players. DERP.
Are you just high on yourself or something not able to look at the other side of the fence?
I'm sitting here in the middle and you're waaaaay left field buddy. The way you want it, no one would do the hard content. It wouldn't be worth it. Look at Garuda now, the weapons aren't worth the difficulty so -almost- no one tries it anymore. Why? Because it's not worth the trouble!
There should be tiers and those tiers should be noticable AND I SAY NOTICABLE NOT OP AS F**K. If you wanna throw stats out there then do it according to how stats are now, not how you assume stats will be like in 2.0.
And I loooooooooooooove how you preach about how you have this forum to voice your opinion even though no one is telling you that you can't. You have to throw stawman argument after strawman argument, you use go way off topic of what anyone with a disagreeing statement has to say and go to the extremes of what others are saying against your points and you completely ignore valid and strong points against your view because OH you don't wanna look wrong now do you?
I never mentioned if you want this game to succeed, I never brought up why this forum was created, I never said you can't voice your opinion, I never talked about SE's ability to make other games, I never talked about SE's "bombs" or mentioned "bad business", your comment about a culture gap and their "grip on reality" has nothing to do with the topic, no one mentioned 1.0 content that will be redone like Caravans or Behests or Hamlets, and no one asked you what SE makes you do and that's just your last post!


No real difference between normal and hard loot is a S**T idea that will alienate hardcore players and I am damned glad they will never listen to people like you again. This is fact, coming from hardcore players who know what they're talking about because they are hardcore and they know what will keep them from playing.
The fact that you just want good loot without trying hard to get it just shows that you don't want there to be a reason to work hard and you want casual players to be almost just as good as hardcore players which just isn't right. Plain and simple. Be rewarded Fairly for your effort. Is that so much to ask that you f***ing see that point?

[Amsai]

Hello everyone!

The way I see it is this:

Problem: If hard mode drops something different than easy mode, then hard mode will be considered 'needed' in order to get that item. This would negate the benefit of having multiple modes as you would 'eventually' 'need' to do hard mode to get that different item.

Problem: If hard mode only drops a slightly better version of something than easy mode (+1 style stats or a bit more), then only a select few may be willing to do the 'hard' mode version to get that item. This means creating content for only a small percentage of the population, which is not something I can see them focusing on. So I do not see this as likely or wise. Plus it will be messy inventory wise to have multiple versions of same thing.

Problem: If hard mode drops significantly better version of something than easy mode (pretend +3 exists and imagine how much better that would be). Then this runs the risk of either making easy mode drop not worth or hard mode drop so powerful that it negates the need for crafting and melding. Both can lead to balance issues and make a sizeable population very unhappy (all in the name of having a 'hard' mode).


Perhaps what is needed regarding hard mode versus easy mode versus extreme mode is a completely different reward system independent of what is dropped. Some would argue that action is its own reward, but Garuda would argue otherwise. So what 'useful' but 'unrequired' drop can come from 'hard mode' that those who only compete in 'easy' mode won't mind, but still retain a benefit to doing hard mode?

To me, one obvious/useful answer is this:
Easy Mode: Drops the nice looking equipment. (This makes everyone happy).
Hard Mode: Drops Rare/Exotic materia. (Good for melders and dedicated players who want to tweak their stats)
Extreme Mode: Drops Exotic Matter. (Can be used to meld materia to specific unmeldable gear).

So a simple example (please don't interpret the values as realistic, only example random numbers):
Adventurer fights hard and eventually wins easy mode and is finally rewarded:
Easy mode drops: Cookiee Monster Cudgel (+10 INT, +20 Attack Magic)

A casual adventurer is happy and goes on her merry way. But another might say: Noo... that fight was too easy, I wish a harder challenge. She goes in and wins 'hard' mode and is rewarded with:
Hard mode drops: Fudge Materia IV (+10 INT, +10 PIE, +10 MND, +10 Magic Accuracy)

She looks at this and is pleased and thinks it would look good on her Lightning Brand. However, she thinks it would look even better on her Cookiee Monster Cudgel, but alas it is unmeldable... unless... She takes on the challenge of Extreme Mode and wins, and is rearded with:
Extreme mode drops: Cookiee Monster Super Materia (Allows melding of any materia to a Cookiee Monster weapon).

She then fuses her Fudge Materia IV to her Cookiee Monster Cudgel and is well pleased with herself.

(Note: I grant SE full rights to create a Cookiee Monster Cudgel and Fudge Materia).

Thank you.

I actually like this idea. This or something like it could strike a good balance.

Not that we even know if this is how it goes down... but a Token Reward is not a punishment for Easy Mode. It's an easy reward obtained for an Easy Mode. I would have assumed you were worried about your own character not earning much for playing on easy mode, but judging from this comment, you must be ready to solo Hard Mode...

Yes, I just mean a victory just for the sake of a victory, Not a loot token. Also I wouldnt say solo, but low man isnt out of the question. Though I would be very happy to play together with friends and family on easymode on nights my LS isnt running content.

But your whole point would alienate hardcore players. DERP.
Are you just high on yourself or something not able to look at the other side of the fence?
I'm sitting here in the middle and you're waaaaay left field buddy. The way you want it, no one would do the hard content. It wouldn't be worth it. Look at Garuda now, the weapons aren't worth the difficulty so -almost- no one tries it anymore. Why? Because it's not worth the trouble!
There should be tiers and those tiers should be noticable AND I SAY NOTICABLE NOT OP AS F**K. If you wanna throw stats out there then do it according to how stats are now, not how you assume stats will be like in 2.0.
And I loooooooooooooove how you preach about how you have this forum to voice your opinion even though no one is telling you that you can't. You have to throw stawman argument after strawman argument, you use go way off topic of what anyone with a disagreeing statement has to say and go to the extremes of what others are saying against your points and you completely ignore valid and strong points against your view because OH you don't wanna look wrong now do you?
I never mentioned if you want this game to succeed, I never brought up why this forum was created, I never said you can't voice your opinion, I never talked about SE's ability to make other games, I never talked about SE's "bombs" or mentioned "bad business", your comment about a culture gap and their "grip on reality" has nothing to do with the topic, no one mentioned 1.0 content that will be redone like Caravans or Behests or Hamlets, and no one asked you what SE makes you do and that's just your last post!


No real difference between normal and hard loot is a S**T idea that will alienate hardcore players and I am damned glad they will never listen to people like you again. This is fact, coming from hardcore players who know what they're talking about because they are hardcore and they know what will keep them from playing.
The fact that you just want good loot without trying hard to get it just shows that you don't want there to be a reason to work hard and you want casual players to be almost just as good as hardcore players which just isn't right. Plain and simple. Be rewarded Fairly for your effort. Is that so much to ask that you f***ing see that point?

Seems like Ive really hit a nerve with you. Most of what you said seems like your getting a bit angry (?) with me. I have absolutely no animosity towards you.

I wouldnt want it so bad that people wouldnt want to do hardmode, as I said there is a balance that can be reached. Im glad you seem to not want the gear to be OP. Again SE just needs to appoach it cautiously.

I certainly dont feel wrong. I feel just as sure of my view point as the sun will rise tomorrow. I also doubt I look wrong to most casuals. So I feel like im in no jeopardy of looking wrong. If you think thats why I went a bit off topic, it has more to do with letting folks know where I am coming from. Most of which I think are quite relevant to the situation, it all ties in.

Again I am trying to look out for this game. This isnt about me or you. We do want to go out and do the hard content, me mostly for the challenge and fun. But from a business standpoint we need to cater to the casuals, so this game can get big. The bigger the population from the beginning, the better the longevity and content in the game.

I do see where you are coming from, I really do. Unfortunately, a certain amount of sacrifice is honestly necessary. However, this doesnt mean I think hardcore players should be forgotten. There are plenty of ways to reward the hardcore: Relic weapons and armor, achievements and items that come with them, Hard mode gear that is better than normal gear, bragging rights, competition (like Hard mode events showing things like best time), Vanity gear and other cosmetic items, Guild Housing, Guild Airships, Summoning Primals, rights/resources through PvP, and how about just doing hard content for the challenge?

Anyways, I am trying to be reasonable. But I feel that if you still cant see my point of view (even if its just a little bit), then we shall have to agree to disagree. This will likely be my last response to you. May 2.0 be everything you deserve.

[AmyNeudaiz]

Seems like Ive really hit a nerve with you. Most of what you said seems like your getting a bit angry (?) with me. I have absolutely no animosity towards you.

I wouldnt want it so bad that people wouldnt want to do hardmode, as I said there is a balance that can be reached. Im glad you seem to not want the gear to be OP. Again SE just needs to appoach it cautiously.

I certainly dont feel wrong. I feel just as sure of my view point as the sun will rise tomorrow. I also doubt I look wrong to most casuals. So I feel like im in no jeopardy of looking wrong. If you think thats why I went a bit off topic, it has more to do with letting folks know where I am coming from. Most of which I think are quite relevant to the situation, it all ties in.

Again I am trying to look out for this game. This isnt about me or you. We do want to go out and do the hard content, me mostly for the challenge and fun. But from a business standpoint we need to cater to the casuals, so this game can get big. The bigger the population from the beginning, the better the longevity and content in the game.

I do see where you are coming from, I really do. Unfortunately, a certain amount of sacrifice is honestly necessary. However, this doesnt mean I think hardcore players should be forgotten. There are plenty of ways to reward the hardcore: Relic weapons and armor, achievements and items that come with them, Hard mode gear that is better than normal gear, bragging rights, competition (like Hard mode events showing things like best time), Vanity gear and other cosmetic items, Guild Housing, Guild Airships, Summoning Primals, rights/resources through PvP, and how about just doing hard content for the challenge?

Anyways, I am trying to be reasonable. But I feel that if you still cant see my point of view (even if its just a little bit), then we shall have to agree to disagree. This will likely be my last response to you. May 2.0 be everything you deserve.

You hit a nerve with your pathetic debating tactics. You don't understand what people like me are (mostly) asking for and you take our examples to the extreme and you ignore points. It is extremely frustrating when someone acts this way.
We want there to be a clear and defined difference between normal and hard content not just a +1 version of the same thing and this is what we're getting. Why anyone would want to change it just so people who put no effort into the game can get it is beyond me.
Hardcore players are the heart of MMO's and if they catered to casuals too much, like what you're asking for in your Original Post, this game won't have a hardcore base and look at recent MMO's that cater so much to casuals to the point that it's the only base they have *COUGH*SWTOR*COUGH*.
So to your original argument, no. You are wrong. There should be a defined difference between casual and hardcore and if you don't put effort you don't deserve the best shiny or even close to it.