Crystalline Conflict Tier List (with deep maths!)

[Dakam]

As someone who climbed on SGE only, putting SGE above WHM and AST in any points just makes me confused honestly, so I'll just brings some points.
WHM has one of the strongest burst aoe and single targets of all the healers, LB > Misery > Seraph Strike is 18k + 13200 + 8000, that's 40k total damage alone in aoe in basically a single gcd while also stunning everyone hit, so putting it's aoe damage at 1 is honestly laughable.
On top of that, they have one of the strongest single target CC in the game, even if it's CD is a bit long, it's strength and ability to confirm kills and interrupt burst is incontestable, for MoN alone WHM should be put on 3 or even 4 if adding the power of its stun lb.

Meanwhile SGE has a lot of weakness in comparison to WHM, for 1 being only able to use Phlegma, their most powerful sustain damage GCD on melee, is one of them, especially when SGE only defense is a sad 8k shield if they have kardia on themselves, once again in comparison, WHM has the ability to gain a 10% damage mitigation buff on themselves, and a 8k shield that can be boosted to 16k if they dispel a CC with it, that can be used immediately and isn't behind a gcd dot.
And while SGE 10% damage debuff can be nice, its lack of meaningful CC is also one of its biggest weakness, being unable to stop anyone from attacking you beside fleeing to a friendly with Icarus is painful in a meta where burst pressure is so strong.

Honestly, SGE greatest strength comes from its 2min LB which can be used twice per matches, outside of that it's probably one of the weakest job in CC in the game right now.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

As someone who climbed on SGE only, putting SGE above WHM and AST in any points just makes me confused honestly, so I'll just brings some points.
WHM has one of the strongest burst aoe and single targets of all the healers, LB > Misery > Seraph Strike is 18k + 13200 + 8000, that's 40k total damage alone in aoe in basically a single gcd while also stunning everyone hit, so putting it's aoe damage at 1 is honestly laughable.
On top of that, they have one of the strongest single target CC in the game, even if it's CD is a bit long, it's strength and ability to confirm kills and interrupt burst is incontestable, for MoN alone WHM should be put on 3 or even 4 if adding the power of its stun lb.

Meanwhile SGE has a lot of weakness in comparison to WHM, for 1 being only able to use Phlegma, their most powerful sustain damage GCD on melee, is one of them, especially when SGE only defense is a sad 8k shield if they have kardia on themselves, once again in comparison, WHM has the ability to gain a 10% damage mitigation buff on themselves, and a 8k shield that can be boosted to 16k if they dispel a CC with it, that can be used immediately and isn't behind a gcd dot.
And while SGE 10% damage debuff can be nice, its lack of meaningful CC is also one of its biggest weakness, being unable to stop anyone from attacking you beside fleeing to a friendly with Icarus is painful in a meta where burst pressure is so strong.

Honestly, SGE greatest strength comes from its 2min LB which can be used twice per matches, outside of that it's probably one of the weakest job in CC in the game right now.

I was also a SGE main once upon a time, and I also believed a lot of the same things you're saying here. Let's go through it point by point.

-WHM's AoE is a 1 due to clerical error, it should be a 3. I believe this has already been addressed in the thread but I'm not sure. Either way, the points gained by correcting this only bump WHM up to tie at the top of B tier.
-Miracle of Nature has already been counted at double value
-If you're using Phlegma as sustained DPS and not as a team AoE burst supplement, I really don't know what to tell you
-Being sad about SGE's tiny shield is valid, but your perspective might improve if you consider SGE to be a green DPS that can happen to shield as opposed to a shield healer who has fat DPS. In any case, SGE was rated 2 in DEF while WHM was rated 5, so I'm not sure what the complaint is here.
-You don't always have to flee to an ally. You can two-birds-one-stone and escape a sticky situation by joining the gang in beating up an enemy, especially if the person chasing you has committed all of their mobility already.


As I've said before, perspective adjustment plays a big part in how strong or weak SGE feels. While it's partially because of DoT damage padding, SGE can easily top damage charts in any given match. Mesotes, while eminently easy to waste, is a singularly game-altering LB. It doesn't have to be used on-cooldown, and SGE players often suffer for trying to do so. One of the best SGE's I've seen has a habit of holding LB for the exact right moment--it only has to do its job once if it does it well enough.

While I must once again stress reading the caveats to this math experiment, I do think that SGE and WHM are well-placed in relation to each other. It is very difficult to deal with a good SGE player, as there aren't many options to interrupt their value beyond "just kill them lol", which a good SGE player will be very good at countering. Near-constant uptime on Toxikon combined with their ability to take advantage of their own damage debuff is a very big deal. WHM's resources can be exhausted pretty quickly, and as long as you're not blatantly disrespecting MoN or the laser, there's not a ton of value that they can bring to the table.

[ThaCa]

SGE Phlegma has shorter range than basically any other move (yes, even shorter than the melee ones) it's hilarious. I think they have had like no changes(?) in all of the patches though so guess their win% is solid. Personally I would like to add them (and their target depending on friend/enemy) a slight damage resistance/reduction in their Jump or something similar to make them just a tiny bit less glass cannon-y.

[Valence]

I don't even find SGE's that good. Sure it can turn games if used precisely a time where it prevents people to win a game, or forces defenders to deal with it when you're about to win a game, but in any other scenario, the enemy can just refuse to fight it and wait it out, or they can also kill the sage.

[Valence]

I may have been biased in saying "just kill the sage" for sure. But then again, once their guard has gone, they're free meal to burst. Mesotes' main value has to happen within the first 5-7s of the LB, unless you have a pocket Paladin idk. It's a pretty nasty constraint.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

I may have been biased in saying "just kill the sage" for sure. But then again, once their guard has gone, they're free meal to burst. Mesotes' main value has to happen within the first 5-7s of the LB, unless you have a pocket Paladin idk. It's a pretty nasty constraint.

Mesotes is very high value if you understand how it works. It's not a traditional "immunity field" like in other games, because of the server tick structure in this game. It grants allies a short immunity buff if it sees them inside the field on a server tick, and it grants enemies the corresponding DoT+counterbuff the same way. This means if you're smart, you don't have to play inside the Mesotes all the time. Ever noticed that sometimes when you try to kill a SGE right after Mesotes ends, they still take 0 damage? It's possible to practice using that "tick immunity" on purpose, giving you a lot more freedom than you might think.

[Valence]

When I say free to burst down it obviously means going in and taking the bullet from the debuff. If the whole team does it, it's not exactly hard to pull off, but on the other hand it offers a window of high damage for the opposing team. This is why this LB loses a lot of value against coordinated team in my view, especially when people are disciplined enough to retreat, or decide to go in for the kill at once. I'm not saying that it's a binary, easy result to get or anything, but like a lot of LBs that take their value over time (BLM, WAR, etc are also in similar situations), if you kill them during it, it can be pretty miserable.

MNK, MCH, and even NIN/DRG are pretty hard counters to this, and the sage really needs a reactive team to prevent them to just oneshot them (with cc or big damage pressure).

[Runeslayer]

I like how a lot of people are just skimming over the 'this list is only based on factors you can reliably quantify/calculate and does not factor in the many sporadic variables that can turn a game in the classes favor'. It's the very example of 'on paper vs in practice'.
Anyway, it's at the very least interesting to see. I knew reaper had a pretty well-rounded kit on paper, but I didn't think it'd take top 1 in this.

[Shikiseki]

It's pretty interesting that a ranking based on numbers and math differs quite a bit to one I'd create based on playing them in casual mode (I'm no pro so this is just my view on the jobs based on a casual pvp player)




S tier - extremely powerful AND easy to play on top of that

DRG - it's super strong and mobile, absolute menace with high kill potential and tough to get a hold of, especially diving into targets to assist and secure kills
MCH - insanely focus target potential with quite a few utility slapped on it to defend the crystal - wildfire is pretty meh but that's to balance out the otherwise insane kit I guess...
WHM - extremely straightforward for the power you're getting, also an excellent crystal pusher unsurprisingly tanky too with so many heals and defensive skills - excellent kill assists too

A-tier - high performing jobs that need little to mid effort

BLM - insane damage and high cc potential paired with high mobility - if left unchecked, this job will just overwhelm parties sooner rather than later...
SMN - surprisingly powerful damage wise with a variety of skills can take out targets with ease with well timed binds to catch ppl off guard - the garuda whirlwind is bit lackluster but good for crystal battles
GNB - highly versatile most of the time, even in tank junction the damage seems overall high - pretty funny to be in dps junction if you're not focused and slice enemies to bits then change to tank/healer stance if available once they realize you're quite the threat
WAR - THE bully job can taunt players by generally being annoying which works for most casual battles to turn their attention away from your team
PLD - Seems very straightforward too with high annoyance factor - the cover can be a godsend and great for keeping the crystal to your team - pretty solid overall


B-tier - solid for most matches

MNK - It's not as straightforward and quite difficult to play - has a lot of potential though and excels at distracting the enemy away from the crystal or chase major threats away from the fray - surprisingly tanky on top of that too
DRK - I find this job rather difficult to play, I'm sure it's hovering around A tier when played correctly cause it does pack a punch due to the high risk and high reward style but you can just walk away from the salted earth when it's not directly placed below the crystal lol
SGE - Often overlooked glass cannon - quite mobile with an aggressive playstyle albeit on the frail side. Kardia is a bit tricky to manage when things go wild so best slapped on yourself unless you're not really focused on at all - automatically placing a barrier to yourself when kardia is on someone else would incentivize swapping lot more

SAM - I found that it does a lot of damage especially in aoe but seems so stupidly easy to just walk out of their distance... can turn around fights though
NIN - This one feels overhyped at least for casual - yeah it has lots of tools at their disposal but it's not like you can use them all at once and you can't just use the same mudra repeatedly either


C-tier - Good but usually need lot more effort

RDM - While this is not a slouch at all, it feels like other jobs just simply do the same job more easily. Still an unchecked RDM on blackshift will destroy quite a bit while catching ppl off guard with their bind/silence
BRD - Very controversial after it's nerf - like it's not bad and still has killing potential but it's damage getting gutted by being close range on crystal fights just feels like a big design flaw and should be other way around (cause a short ranged arrow will hurt lot more lol)
DNC - Has quite a few tools to be effective but most of the time percieved as an easy target due to having to stay in a somewhat close to mid range. Still quite mobile can still attack quite well while escaping too
RPR - This one requires a lot of setup it seems due to the assist/kill mechanic but it can cause some surprise wins on overtime battles with their fear LB - bit too complicated for your average player to keep composure during their highly technical LB phase as well I feel like


D-tier - Servicable but feel lacking

SCH - it's not bad per se and can be quite the nuisance in the battlefield still it's impact isn't as noticable as most of the others. Probably the clunkiest LB imo - generally the job I can focus on providing callouts the most if that's your thing
AST - can provide an excellent backbone as support and generally does well - can dish high numbers too when the enemy is packed together but generally feels probably the weakest if you're alone especially on a crystal

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

The context is in the difference between in vivo and in vitro. I was trying to think about a research method that might reflect in vivo performance. Surveys have their bias as any other method but a large survey can still produce a decent profile for each job. You did a good job in both explaining and presenting your calculations but you must see yourself that in case of bard the picture is far cry from reality.

I think if we did a survey it'd have to be modulated by rank in some way. Take SAM, for example. At low ranks, it can dominate with little more than Chiten/Zantetsuken, but it falls off around Diamond/Plat once people figure out how to deal with that. Then in higher Crystal, it becomes strong again when the SAM players figure out how to play without relying solely on LB cheese.

I guess in my initial disclaimer and rubric breakdown I shouldve been more clear with what this system is presenting: it is sanitized to measure, as closely as possible, what each job is capable of (relative to other jobs), given perfect play and perfect opportunities. This is to provide quantifiable and level baseline, which the reader can use to factor in the amount of difficulty and resistance that they expect their job(s) to encounter.

In other words, each player is supposed to interpret the data by adding context relevant to them. Anyone who has seen any stats in any other game (or sport, even) knows that numbers are never the whole story, and I suppose it was my mistake to assume that the CC community would approach this project with that notion in mind.

Re:BRD I'll keep saying it until I'm summarily executed on this hill, but BRD is a win-more value engine and force multiplier that only looks good if its team looks good. Maybe it can solo hard carry in Silver or something, but it certainly isn't going to be the star of the team in anything Diamond or above. It's a combat support that requires correct and timely follow-up to achieve anything of value, in a game full of melees and tanks that can either fulfill their own game plan or provide 85% solutions that only require their team to breathe on the enemy. It sits in a similar space to AST and SCH imo. As mentioned before, the flexibility and availability of its burst means it's good at mopping up kills that its team couldn't otherwise complete, which is probably why people have such a skewed perception of its lethality. But even that availability comes at a price, namely Empyreal requiring constant combat to achieve any reasonable cooldown. BRD can't just go hide somewhere and elixir while waiting for its burst window to come back up.