Linear, linear, linear

[R041]

But, what was actually lost, unless one considers any additional time taken in traversing the terrain as an absolute downside?

Even at the worst count, HW+ zones have (at least) as many features per zone as do ARR zones. They just also happen to have more space between them, which can come with advantages is building an aesthetic and making the zone seem more realistic.

The easiest answer to that is density allows more casual player interaction. The second obvious one is you no longer appreciate the environment because you're always flying around.

I've made more friends from casually doing things in open world ARR than in HW-EW.

I think ARR had better overall player distribution through the world, where everything HW+ was just linear with almost no backtracking the whole way.

Also real doesn't equate fun. Never has. It was done just to satiate flying as a mechanic, and probably even reduce server resource load by limiting the amount of passive player interaction.

[Iscah]

The easiest answer to that is density allows more casual player interaction. The second obvious one is you no longer appreciate the environment because you're always flying around.

Why can't you "appreciate the environment" while in flight? It gives you vast sweeping views of the environment, or you can fly low and get the same experience as walking (but faster).

[R041]

...

Soloing Leves? Just because the vid has a dude soloing them, doesn't mean we didn't do parties of zone activities.

Removing Leves contributed nothing.

Forgetting about content types contribute nothing.

Why can't you "appreciate the environment" while in flight? It gives you vast sweeping views of the environment, or you can fly low and get the same experience as walking (but faster).

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

[Iscah]

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

I don't see a difference. One way or another you are moving yourself across a landscape.

[R041]

I don't see a difference. One way or another you are moving yourself across a landscape.

That's a bit lonely and sad tbh, you're looking at it as a means to an end. I prefer to accidentally bump into people and things.

It's why I still try and strike up random conversations in dungeons, but it's usually clear everyone's just going through the motions.

[Iscah]

That's a bit lonely and sad tbh, you're looking at it as a means to an end. I prefer to accidentally bump into people and things.

It's why I still try and strike up random conversations in dungeons, but it's usually clear everyone's just going through the motions.

If everyone flies, then you're going to cross paths in the air as much as on the ground. Either way people are just as likely to ride past and continue on their own questing.

I just enjoy seeing people around. I don't need to interact directly.

Dungeons are different because you're a team doing an activity together, and even then, I'm just as happy to be with people doing a thing without necessarily needing to make small talk during it.

[Jojoya]

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

The existence of flying doesn't take that away from you. You have the ability to be on the ground interacting with the game world. You are not forced to fly.

The option to fly is there for those who want it. There have been many times I've gone on foot in game even though I had the option to fly because on that particular day I felt like walking/running.

[R041]

The existence of flying doesn't take that away from you. You have the ability to be on the ground interacting with the game world. You are not forced to fly.

The option to fly is there for those who want it. There have been many times I've gone on foot in game even though I had the option to fly because on that particular day I felt like walking/running.

99 times out of 100, you're going to fly the distance.

When given the option for things that are combined both easier, and less social - People will always pick the easy option. It's again, a part of why our world feels absolutely lifeless. Because it lacks struggle and forced social interaction, and that's an issue that bleeds into all sections of the casual gameplay. The only time this isn't true is raid. So the options we're given are just extremes.

Obviously removing flying alone wouldn't fix this massive issue - If you think that's the discussion, you're missing the point here.

[Shurrikhan]

Soloing Leves? Just because the vid has a dude soloing them, doesn't mean we didn't do parties of zone activities.

Removing Leves contributed nothing.

So, I don't quite get this:

You make the claim earlier that HW effectively 'removed', say, leves, Additional Actions, Additional Attributes, etc., just because they didn't make further effort to situate those systems.

But let's consider that 'situating' here, as it applies to leves. While leves do awkwardly section away leve mobs so that others can see but cannot interact with them (or even each others' leves), they do not section leve-runners away from the existing world mobs. As such, leve-runners would frequently complain about having to fight non-leve enemies while doing their leves just because their areas overlapped.

The result, from early beta: to leave room for leves, fewer mobs populated the landscape itself and FATE counts were kept fewer, and their affected area kept more limited, as not to as greatly overlap with leve areas.

So, yes, in terms of situating potential actual open-world elements (instead of solo/party-locked play that just happens to be done in the same area), removing leves actually did contribute something.

Was that 'something' ever acted upon? No. Which is why I'm not a fan of leves removal, per se. But, make no mistake: leves were a really shitty bandaid over a more fundamental issue, and which worsened that fundamental issue.

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

Relative to their zones, they're... the same travel times. Outside of ARR flight, neither one is any 'easier' than the other. You use your mount to bypass mobs... or you use your mount to bypass mobs and maybe take a single inconsequential hit that quickly heals back up.

If you're counting making more turns as difficulty... that'd likewise be possible if we had what was suggested earlier -- physics-based flight and mount Stamina. The lack of interaction isn't a problem with going fast. It's a problem with "flying" like some sort of NoClip God-Mode spectator, instead of anything akin to actual flight.

Tl;dr:

• Zone size isn't an issue. Detail count, number of points of interest, are the travel times between them are the actual points of concern, and those were unchanged by zone size. (An abandoned or frontier zone being less populated may instead have more to do with it being... abandoned or... a frontier.)
  
  
• Similarly, of all the things to miss from ARR that could have instead been expanded upon, leves are not that. They were a bandaid that themselves previously worsened what opportunities zones had available to them for their design. Combined with smaller zones, they are a large factor of why we lost the open-world dungeons and larger, more complex mob camps from 1.x.
  
  
• Most importantly, neither the expanding of zone sizes nor the removal of leves --nor anything for which those would be synecdochical-- are what made the world feel like short of opportunities for immersion. That comes down instead to issues that have been present since 1.x and, especially, since ARR -- the clumping of all uses of interest for the world into relatively few spaces and activities.

[R041]

...

Congratulations, you realize the problem is the sum of their parts. I'm not digging on just flying. I'm saying it's a form of social separation and risk reduction, as all of our systems tend to be.

Where XIV has avoided all possible risk, they've avoided most social engagement. We're to the point we need night clubs to invent that engagement.

What a stupid argument anyway - It's not like you actually enjoy the world as it currently is, literally adding anything to it would make it substantially better. We're just arguing to argue, on top of a hill of shit. We're just trying to see who is more righter-er about how shit the zones are. They're shit, and nobody's engaging in them socially. That's a fact we both know.