Linear, linear, linear

[kpxmanifesto]

HW started the trend of horrible open world design and has probably the worst open world maps in this game. Azys Lla, half of Sea of Clouds, half of Dravanian Forelands, basically the entire Coerthan West; they all are incredibly empty and pointless, and many are just huge squares.

HW maps are practically just ARR maps except you stretch the points of interest far apart and color the void with AI-generated terrain paint. All the subsequent expansions are no different. I would say it's the worst open world maps I've ever played but that would be a lie because there's Assassin's Creed Valhalla.

There is literally more lore, ambient NPCs, points of interest packed in an ARR map vs. HW despite the HW one being like four times larger or something. ARR maps feel like places people lived in and engaged with (like hot springs, empty huts, cerulean pipe lines). HW maps feel like going to Antarctica and being disappointed it's literally just a blank void.

If they can't fill the open world with enough points of interest just make the map smaller and denser and spend more resources on making interesting terrain (like Eureka Pagos)

Man, I felt the complete opposite. I really liked flying around the vast, undiscovered, and unchecked wilderness. I got explorer on an expedition type vibes. But that's just me though.

[R041]

Man, I felt the complete opposite. I really liked flying around the vast, undiscovered, and unchecked wilderness. I got explorer on an expedition type vibes. But that's just me though.

Probably because difference is refreshing, until you realize how much you lose because of it. Grass is always greener or something like that.

[Shurrikhan]

Probably because difference is refreshing, until you realize how much you lose because of it. Grass is always greener or something like that.

But, what was actually lost, unless one considers any additional time taken in traversing the terrain as an absolute downside?

Even at the worst count, HW+ zones have (at least) as many features per zone as do ARR zones. They just also happen to have more space between them, which can come with advantages is building an aesthetic and making the zone seem more realistic.

[R041]

But, what was actually lost, unless one considers any additional time taken in traversing the terrain as an absolute downside?

Even at the worst count, HW+ zones have (at least) as many features per zone as do ARR zones. They just also happen to have more space between them, which can come with advantages is building an aesthetic and making the zone seem more realistic.

The easiest answer to that is density allows more casual player interaction. The second obvious one is you no longer appreciate the environment because you're always flying around.

I've made more friends from casually doing things in open world ARR than in HW-EW.

I think ARR had better overall player distribution through the world, where everything HW+ was just linear with almost no backtracking the whole way.

Also real doesn't equate fun. Never has. It was done just to satiate flying as a mechanic, and probably even reduce server resource load by limiting the amount of passive player interaction.

[Iscah]

The easiest answer to that is density allows more casual player interaction. The second obvious one is you no longer appreciate the environment because you're always flying around.

Why can't you "appreciate the environment" while in flight? It gives you vast sweeping views of the environment, or you can fly low and get the same experience as walking (but faster).

[R041]

...

Soloing Leves? Just because the vid has a dude soloing them, doesn't mean we didn't do parties of zone activities.

Removing Leves contributed nothing.

Forgetting about content types contribute nothing.

Why can't you "appreciate the environment" while in flight? It gives you vast sweeping views of the environment, or you can fly low and get the same experience as walking (but faster).

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

[Iscah]

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

I don't see a difference. One way or another you are moving yourself across a landscape.

[Jojoya]

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

The existence of flying doesn't take that away from you. You have the ability to be on the ground interacting with the game world. You are not forced to fly.

The option to fly is there for those who want it. There have been many times I've gone on foot in game even though I had the option to fly because on that particular day I felt like walking/running.

[Shurrikhan]

Soloing Leves? Just because the vid has a dude soloing them, doesn't mean we didn't do parties of zone activities.

Removing Leves contributed nothing.

So, I don't quite get this:

You make the claim earlier that HW effectively 'removed', say, leves, Additional Actions, Additional Attributes, etc., just because they didn't make further effort to situate those systems.

But let's consider that 'situating' here, as it applies to leves. While leves do awkwardly section away leve mobs so that others can see but cannot interact with them (or even each others' leves), they do not section leve-runners away from the existing world mobs. As such, leve-runners would frequently complain about having to fight non-leve enemies while doing their leves just because their areas overlapped.

The result, from early beta: to leave room for leves, fewer mobs populated the landscape itself and FATE counts were kept fewer, and their affected area kept more limited, as not to as greatly overlap with leve areas.

So, yes, in terms of situating potential actual open-world elements (instead of solo/party-locked play that just happens to be done in the same area), removing leves actually did contribute something.

Was that 'something' ever acted upon? No. Which is why I'm not a fan of leves removal, per se. But, make no mistake: leves were a really shitty bandaid over a more fundamental issue, and which worsened that fundamental issue.

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

Relative to their zones, they're... the same travel times. Outside of ARR flight, neither one is any 'easier' than the other. You use your mount to bypass mobs... or you use your mount to bypass mobs and maybe take a single inconsequential hit that quickly heals back up.

If you're counting making more turns as difficulty... that'd likewise be possible if we had what was suggested earlier -- physics-based flight and mount Stamina. The lack of interaction isn't a problem with going fast. It's a problem with "flying" like some sort of NoClip God-Mode spectator, instead of anything akin to actual flight.

Tl;dr:

• Zone size isn't an issue. Detail count, number of points of interest, are the travel times between them are the actual points of concern, and those were unchanged by zone size. (An abandoned or frontier zone being less populated may instead have more to do with it being... abandoned or... a frontier.)
  
  
• Similarly, of all the things to miss from ARR that could have instead been expanded upon, leves are not that. They were a bandaid that themselves previously worsened what opportunities zones had available to them for their design. Combined with smaller zones, they are a large factor of why we lost the open-world dungeons and larger, more complex mob camps from 1.x.
  
  
• Most importantly, neither the expanding of zone sizes nor the removal of leves --nor anything for which those would be synecdochical-- are what made the world feel like short of opportunities for immersion. That comes down instead to issues that have been present since 1.x and, especially, since ARR -- the clumping of all uses of interest for the world into relatively few spaces and activities.

[Absurdity]

But, what was actually lost, unless one considers any additional time taken in traversing the terrain as an absolute downside?

Even at the worst count, HW+ zones have (at least) as many features per zone as do ARR zones. They just also happen to have more space between them, which can come with advantages is building an aesthetic and making the zone seem more realistic.

Detail in zones, be that environment clutter, points of interest or landmarks.

I guess you could also say the newer zones lost "immersion", as limited as it already is in XIV, because after ARR you rarely ever find random NPCs going about their day or even buildings that you can enter anymore.