Linear, linear, linear

[Shurrikhan]

I'd also like to point out that FF14 has cross server markets as well it's just a bit unwieldy because you have to world travel.

Hardly a concern to bots who are capable then of autonomously buying out the stock of servers with cheaper products, but... surely we don't have bots, right? Nor RMT.

[TheDecay]

We've also seen even simpler ideas like "forks" or "larger sub-zones/rooms" (where, yes, one route may end up preferred over the others, but at least the dungeon is thereby aesthetically more varied all without needing to cause any backtracking or even conflict between speed-of-run (favors quicker queues/non-DPS) and reward-per-run (favors slower queues/DPS).

And then there's the simple matter of more apparent variation --just along that route-- to alter the "Just hold W; wall-to-wall" pace of the dungeon and thereby make it feel less linear, be that the likes of the occasional defense segment, scattered mini-objectives, or whatever else.

Look at what Alfheim is on a map:
https://mapgenie.io/god-of-war-2018/maps/alfheim

Pretty much a straight line.

But in the game? You go through tunnels to unlock bridges, or move platforms up and down. You go to the temple, which curves into itself and has numerous branching paths. And as you leave the temple, many things shift; formerly accessible routes become inaccessible, and vice versa.

GoW designed straight lines far better than FF14 and FF16. It made linear corridors feel non-linear and feel much vaster than they actually are. Why can't CBU3 learn from them?

It originally seemed like FF14's dungeons were extreme linear corridors because it was an MMO and they wanted to streamline the process. But now that FF16 is out, I have the feeling that it's simply because they don't know how to design anything else.

[Jojoya]

That... is a multi-path dungeon. If you can go 1234, 2314, 3214, etc.... that's... already multiple paths available. And that's all WoW has ever had within Vanilla, either, so there's been no "stop" there; it's the same capacity (though expanded, in some cases). And well beyond even 1.x outside of old Totorak (3 exits, with the furthest one giving more rewards, but increasingly risking death to the gasses inside [timer mechanic]).

And what did the player base decide about those dungeons? Since the rewards and bosses would be the same regardless of what order you did them in, the player base decided that the 3214 order was the most efficient route so every group would automatically go 3214. The occasional random player who wanted to go 1324 would get left for dead at best if they didn't rejoin the rest of the group or kicked out of the group at worst.

At that point, the dungeon might as well be linear when groups are going to follow the same route every time regardless. There's nothing gained (or lost) by going a different route outside of an extra minute of time.

Variant has a nice concept that's the start to making multi-path dungeons interesting but there's still a lot of room for improvement. Imagine alternate paths that lead to altars that grant a group buffs, with those buffs granting different benefits to the group at the same time they subtly alter boss mechanics (as we see in the current Variant based on route choice or interaction with various objects). Groups would could choose their route depending on which buff would be most beneficial to the group comp's strengths and weaknesses since the Variant actions make the usual T-H-D-D comp unnecessary. Or perhaps route choice would change what the boss loot drops are. Defeating optional bosses could make the final boss harder with better rewards or weaker with lesser rewards.

There's no point in making multi-path dungeons if the choice of route doesn't have the potential to impact the overall experience in some meaningful way.

[Shinkuno]

And what did the player base decide about those dungeons? Since the rewards and bosses would be the same regardless of what order you did them in, the player base decided that the 3214 order was the most efficient route so every group would automatically go 3214. The occasional random player who wanted to go 1324 would get left for dead at best if they didn't rejoin the rest of the group or kicked out of the group at worst.

At that point, the dungeon might as well be linear when groups are going to follow the same route every time regardless. There's nothing gained (or lost) by going a different route outside of an extra minute of time.

Variant has a nice concept that's the start to making multi-path dungeons interesting but there's still a lot of room for improvement. Imagine alternate paths that lead to altars that grant a group buffs, with those buffs granting different benefits to the group at the same time they subtly alter boss mechanics (as we see in the current Variant based on route choice or interaction with various objects). Groups would could choose their route depending on which buff would be most beneficial to the group comp's strengths and weaknesses since the Variant actions make the usual T-H-D-D comp unnecessary. Or perhaps route choice would change what the boss loot drops are. Defeating optional bosses could make the final boss harder with better rewards or weaker with lesser rewards.

There's no point in making multi-path dungeons if the choice of route doesn't have the potential to impact the overall experience in some meaningful way.

Do you have some more mental gymnastics why Square putting 0 effort into the dungeons is actually a good thing? Lmao. Imagine paying a monthly sub and then doing unpaid shill work. 7000 Posts in 5 years, man the game must have so much content.

[Shurrikhan]

<snip>

So, the problem of Blizzard's modern dungeons is that "stopped" having multiple paths... despite their coming to actually have more and freer paths (up to and including being a literal whole zone) and being better able to select which mobs one actually wants to fight...

...and even the old pre-ruined dungeons were also not enough, because they weren't Variant (gimmicky overstuffed combat hallways with regularly placed forks with less aesthetic identity than most games' procedurally generated instance environments)?

There's no point in making multi-path dungeons if the choice of route doesn't have the potential to impact the overall experience in some meaningful way.

Honestly, I could agree with this. But that's just the thing: I absolutely feel like M+ pathing choice in De Other Side (especially under Prideful), Siege of Boralus (especially under Nzoth affix), Azure Vault, Brakenhide, etc. still allowed for far more impact on the overall experience than did hitting the Left/Right switch in X particular combination in Variant dungeons.

To me, you're pointing at some fresh woodwork and calling it stinky only to stick your nose in some dank mold and declare "Ahh, yes, this would be better."

Your preferring every pathing option to solely be a choice marked by an external mechanic, over any of various granular-but-cumulative differences is... a preference. Subjective. It's not something objectively superior.


Edit:

Again, I don't think making each and every dungeon especially allow for multiple paths is likely to be a worthwhile expense and my main concern is in ways of just at least feeling less linear and feeling like a novel experience... but for dungeons to feel diverse and fleshed out, even just along that primary route, it will often be worthwhile for the art to at least hint at other routes and to flesh out more than just the pathable hallway... at which point particularly pretty dungeons are very likely to be worth adding additional pathing options to, which might in turn incentivize other little additions that would from there seem like low-hanging fruit.

The main thing for me isn't whether they're linear or not --that's just a iconic characteristic that's synecdochal for so many other problems, too-- but rather that they're so unambitious and unvaried in their mechanics and especially their layouts, practically wasting their differences in the art itself. I really want more (and more engaging) light party content, rather than just to feel like I'm getting reskins of the same things that's been run 1000 times instead of actually new dungeons.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Look at what Alfheim is on a map:
https://mapgenie.io/god-of-war-2018/maps/alfheim

Pretty much a straight line.

But in the game? You go through tunnels to unlock bridges, or move platforms up and down. You go to the temple, which curves into itself and has numerous branching paths. And as you leave the temple, many things shift; formerly accessible routes become inaccessible, and vice versa.

GoW designed straight lines far better than FF14 and FF16. It made linear corridors feel non-linear and feel much vaster than they actually are. Why can't CBU3 learn from them?

It originally seemed like FF14's dungeons were extreme linear corridors because it was an MMO and they wanted to streamline the process. But now that FF16 is out, I have the feeling that it's simply because they don't know how to design anything else.

Yet...they DID designs something else years ago and the playebase disliked it. It's been said here many times. If GoW does it that much better go play that. I personally don't need every game of mine to emulate another. That's how you get samey garbage down the road. You dislike 16 (Cool) and felt the need to tell us...in a XIV forum. NEXT

[Shinkuno]

Yet...they DID designs something else years ago and the playebase disliked it. It's been said here many times. If GoW does it that much better go play that. I personally don't need every game of mine to emulate another. That's how you get samey garbage down the road. You dislike 16 (Cool) and felt the need to tell us...in a XIV forum. NEXT

FF16 emulating corridors of FF14 = good

FF16 emulating other games = would be bad cause copying other games is bad

what a flawless logic you got there.

[thevanguard]

Yet...they DID designs something else years ago and the playebase disliked it. It's been said here many times. If GoW does it that much better go play that. I personally don't need every game of mine to emulate another. That's how you get samey garbage down the road. You dislike 16 (Cool) and felt the need to tell us...in a XIV forum. NEXT

hmm, you people always seem to forget that ff14 literally copied from wow

[Deo14]

Game with one major linear system/element is tolerable. It's when you have linear story, linear map progression(ff13 corridors), and give players barely any creativity in their character's build, when it becomes way too much and the game turns into a TV show.

[TheDecay]

Game with one major linear system/element is tolerable. It's when you have linear story, linear map progression(ff13 corridors), and give players barely any creativity in their character's build, when it becomes way too much and the game turns into a TV show.

Exactly. I'm not sure what FF14 even did well on a gameplay level.

Is it a good action game? No it isn't as deep as Dark Souls or GoW, there's barely any way for you to customize your build like in Souls.

Is it a good hack-n-slash? No it isn't as fast-paced as DMC.

Is it a good RPG? No it somehow has even less RPG elements than GOW which did not describe itself as an RPG. Just linearly railroads you into a set path.

Is it a good story-based game? I think this is the only thing FF16 is good at, sadly. So why is it a video game and not a movie?