Linear, linear, linear

[Oizen]

Linear isn't as much of a problem as Formulaic.

I don't hate linear dungeons, I hate the fact dungeons in this game are 2 pulls, wall, boss, repeated 3 times, and have been for nearly 10 years.

[Shurrikhan]

And your suggestion in its place was? Oh, right, nothing, because you realize my point still 100% stands that it is likely impossible to find something in a dungeon reward that would have staying power in encouraging people to explore non-linear paths.

Literally anything that has at least faintly greater reward-efficiency to the average dungeon-runner than not doing them. So far, we've seen them only been a penalty to rate of reward.

Sadly, the moment they removed EXP from trash was the final nail in the coffin of ever making dungeons at least a little non-linear.

Largely this.

EXP will affect every Leveling Roulette runner who isn't already level-capped on their job (i.e., the vast majority of those likely to end up in, say, leveling dungeons), whereas actual gear drops basically only affect those between the x5-x9 levels for whom that dungeon is still current (over the course of an expansion, probably a third or slightly less of players in a given Leveling Roulette dungeon). Granted, they could provide experience by other means at points along side-paths, such as by having an optional mini-boss or just having an exp reward from a side-objective, and in-dungeon FATE, or even from opening a chest, but that would require thinking several orders of magnitude too far out of the box, I guess...

Tomes are about as broadly useful, as they'll affect all but those already capped on relevant Poetics gear.

Do you know why they're linear?

Because players wanted them that way.

Players want to be rewarded and generally dislike backtracking or otherwise clunky and half-assed tack-ons.

The connection between that and specifically linear dungeons is pretty damn tangential, with its correlation dependent on the XIV devs'...

1. failing to give doing side-paths decent reward-efficiency and
2. failing to make the side-paths themselves interesting or to reconnect by any means other than back-tracking.

That being said...

Linear isn't as much of a problem as Formulaic.

I don't hate linear dungeons, I hate the fact dungeons in this game are 2 pulls, wall, boss, repeated 3 times, and have been for nearly 10 years.

Fully agreed. While I'd love to see some path variance, even if the particular route is forced as to keep things at the now-traditional 'just press W' pace of XIV's "Dungeons", just for more views into the pretty set pieces / reskin of the dungeon and to lets its novelty last a little longer, I don't really mind that XIV "Dungeons" are just, at the end of the day... hallways. But they do at least need more varied things to do over that hallway run.

(However, I still do want a new content mode that salvages "Dungeon" assets to create more freely explorable still-combat-heavy areas. Not for every dungeon, but at least for the ones that already seem pretty fit to that purpose.)

[Striker44]

Literally anything that has at least faintly greater reward-efficiency to the average dungeon-runner than not doing them. So far, we've seen them only been a penalty to rate of reward.

Actually, this is exactly what they used to offer - greater reward-efficiency. Aside from the gear upgrades, someone else pointed out killing one pack of mobs for an item that fetched a very good price on the MB, yet what did we do? Skip it.

What's extremely telling is that nobody making this claim of "offer something better" is yet to actually offer even a single idea of what that could be, just vague comments like the one quoted here suggesting only they realize it's not actually feasible.

That... is a multi-path dungeon. If you can go 1234, 2314, 3214, etc.... that's... already multiple paths available.

Wait, so your idea of "non-linear" is to fight the same exact mobs in the same exact order within each "wing", just...you get to choose the order of the wings? In that case, FFXIV already does that with every single raid tier, which once you've cleared them once come in groups of 4 that you can complete for an extra tome reward in any order...

[TheDecay]

Wait, so your idea of "non-linear" is to fight the same exact mobs in the same exact order within each "wing", just...you get to choose the order of the wings? In that case, FFXIV already does that with every single raid tier, which once you've cleared them once come in groups of 4 that you can complete for an extra tome reward in any order...

You even play the game? If you do the third floor before doing the second you forfeit loot from the second floor.

[Shurrikhan]

Actually, this is exactly what they used to offer - greater reward-efficiency. Aside from the gear upgrades, someone else pointed out killing one pack of mobs for an item that fetched a very good price on the MB, yet what did we do? Skip it.

It fetched a good price on the MB, for the one person who looted it, for about two weeks after ARR's release.

What's extremely telling is that nobody making this claim of "offer something better"

They have, though: better rewards (i.e., ones that are actually rewarding to more than just those with gear worse than what the dungeon offers) on those side-paths, and for those side-paths to be at least roughly as interesting as the main path and not require the party to simply double back to the main path anyways. I.e., don't utterly half-ass them if they're going to be put in. Not that difficult a concept.

We've also seen even simpler ideas like "forks" or "larger sub-zones/rooms" (where, yes, one route may end up preferred over the others, but at least the dungeon is thereby aesthetically more varied all without needing to cause any backtracking or even conflict between speed-of-run (favors quicker queues/non-DPS) and reward-per-run (favors slower queues/DPS).

And then there's the simple matter of more apparent variation --just along that route-- to alter the "Just hold W; wall-to-wall" pace of the dungeon and thereby make it feel less linear, be that the likes of the occasional defense segment, scattered mini-objectives, or whatever else.

Wait, so your idea of "non-linear" is to fight the same exact mobs in the same exact order within each "wing", just...you get to choose the order of the wings?

It's a WoW dungeon... A large portion of the mobs will be skippable (yes, even without crowd control / Shroud / passing through the Nightmare Realm), and many of the rooms themselves offer multiple pull choices by which to pass through them. That's true even in their more "linear" ones.

And, no, that's not all I mean. Take the first example above. The only set requirements are that you have to kill the first 3 bosses, in any order, to end the protections around Nokhudon Hold. (In any order) claim the ballistae in order to ground Granath, break the storm totems to end the hurricane around the Raging Tempest, kill the necromancers to break the ritual attempting to bind the fallen heroes.

Apart from that final boss, the order of bosses and the mob pulls around each are entirely up to you, along with which spare mobs to pull to meet the %clear requirements.

In that case, FFXIV already does that with every single raid tier, which once you've cleared them once come in groups of 4 that you can complete for an extra tome reward in any order...

Is this a weird "I don't want loot and/or I don't mind screwing my party over" flex, or are you just not familiar with how Savage works?

[TheDecay]

We've also seen even simpler ideas like "forks" or "larger sub-zones/rooms" (where, yes, one route may end up preferred over the others, but at least the dungeon is thereby aesthetically more varied all without needing to cause any backtracking or even conflict between speed-of-run (favors quicker queues/non-DPS) and reward-per-run (favors slower queues/DPS).

And then there's the simple matter of more apparent variation --just along that route-- to alter the "Just hold W; wall-to-wall" pace of the dungeon and thereby make it feel less linear, be that the likes of the occasional defense segment, scattered mini-objectives, or whatever else.

Look at what Alfheim is on a map:
https://mapgenie.io/god-of-war-2018/maps/alfheim

Pretty much a straight line.

But in the game? You go through tunnels to unlock bridges, or move platforms up and down. You go to the temple, which curves into itself and has numerous branching paths. And as you leave the temple, many things shift; formerly accessible routes become inaccessible, and vice versa.

GoW designed straight lines far better than FF14 and FF16. It made linear corridors feel non-linear and feel much vaster than they actually are. Why can't CBU3 learn from them?

It originally seemed like FF14's dungeons were extreme linear corridors because it was an MMO and they wanted to streamline the process. But now that FF16 is out, I have the feeling that it's simply because they don't know how to design anything else.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Look at what Alfheim is on a map:
https://mapgenie.io/god-of-war-2018/maps/alfheim

Pretty much a straight line.

But in the game? You go through tunnels to unlock bridges, or move platforms up and down. You go to the temple, which curves into itself and has numerous branching paths. And as you leave the temple, many things shift; formerly accessible routes become inaccessible, and vice versa.

GoW designed straight lines far better than FF14 and FF16. It made linear corridors feel non-linear and feel much vaster than they actually are. Why can't CBU3 learn from them?

It originally seemed like FF14's dungeons were extreme linear corridors because it was an MMO and they wanted to streamline the process. But now that FF16 is out, I have the feeling that it's simply because they don't know how to design anything else.

Yet...they DID designs something else years ago and the playebase disliked it. It's been said here many times. If GoW does it that much better go play that. I personally don't need every game of mine to emulate another. That's how you get samey garbage down the road. You dislike 16 (Cool) and felt the need to tell us...in a XIV forum. NEXT

[Shinkuno]

Yet...they DID designs something else years ago and the playebase disliked it. It's been said here many times. If GoW does it that much better go play that. I personally don't need every game of mine to emulate another. That's how you get samey garbage down the road. You dislike 16 (Cool) and felt the need to tell us...in a XIV forum. NEXT

FF16 emulating corridors of FF14 = good

FF16 emulating other games = would be bad cause copying other games is bad

what a flawless logic you got there.

[thevanguard]

Yet...they DID designs something else years ago and the playebase disliked it. It's been said here many times. If GoW does it that much better go play that. I personally don't need every game of mine to emulate another. That's how you get samey garbage down the road. You dislike 16 (Cool) and felt the need to tell us...in a XIV forum. NEXT

hmm, you people always seem to forget that ff14 literally copied from wow