Linear, linear, linear

[Shinkuno]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

Hell no, just because players like to minmax you dont start design are boring game. WoW players are one of the most min-maxing crowed amongst MMO players at least and Blizzard didnt stop designing open dungeons just because some players map out the fastest path. Stop excusing their lazy design with "but its the players fault!"

[Jojoya]

Hell no, just because players like to minmax you dont start design are boring game. WoW players are one of the most min-maxing crowed amongst MMO players at least and Blizzard didnt stop designing open dungeons just because some players map out the fastest path. Stop excusing their lazy design with "but its the players fault!"

Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

It was indeed the fault of the player base. Development teams get a lot of pressure to cut costs and when only 2% of players are engaging with content on a regular basis, guess what's going to get cut first. It's the stuff that the majority of players are ignoring.

You did know that WoW almost lost raiding altogether toward the end of The Burning Crusade, didn't you? Executive management didn't like that only 2% of the player base was completing the raids. They felt it was a waste of money that should be spent on content a larger part of the player base would do and were pressuring the development team to redirect the manpower to other content development. That's why the diversity of raid difficulties was added in Wrath and expanded on even more during later expansions. It was to get more players into raiding so the developers wouldn't be forced to cut it from the game. It almost backfired when they tried to move raiding back to more difficult in Cataclysm from the casual friendly style they had adopted for Wrath. And so the casual raid modes became a staple of the game.

[Shinkuno]

Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

It was indeed the fault of the player base. Development teams get a lot of pressure to cut costs and when only 2% of players are engaging with content on a regular basis, guess what's going to get cut first. It's the stuff that the majority of players are ignoring.

You did know that WoW almost lost raiding altogether toward the end of The Burning Crusade, didn't you? Executive management didn't like that only 2% of the player base was completing the raids. They felt it was a waste of money that should be spent on content a larger part of the player base would do and were pressuring the development team to redirect the manpower to other content development. That's why the diversity of raid difficulties was added in Wrath and expanded on even more during later expansions. It was to get more players into raiding so the developers wouldn't be forced to cut it from the game. It almost backfired when they tried to move raiding back to more difficult in Cataclysm from the casual friendly style they had adopted for Wrath. And so the casual raid modes became a staple of the game.

And yet we got Brackenhide, Nokhud Offensive, Academy, Neltharus and thats just Dragonflight alone. Shadowlands had the Market for example and BFA had Waycrest Manor. People minmax Raidtrash skips yet you dont see Blizzard going the stupid "teleport to boss in a circle" Route that Square went with.

I dont even know what difficulty settings has to do with this so go on i guess. You are free to continue to excuse the lazyness of the reskin corridor simulator.

Except they've already done that, and we've responded in the same way. Extra gear in Haukke Manor from using additional keys to open more rooms. Upgraded drops in the second part of Cutter's Cry from killing all the mobs in a room before opening the chests. None of it mattered. (Heck, in that second part of Cutter's Cry, groups used to kill one pack and move on...now we don't even bother doing that and just run straight to the portals to the next rooms.) Simply put, it's likely impossible to find something "suitably" rewarding that the playerbase in general will spend that extra time. It's not SE's fault. At all.

But it used to matter, kinda. People did farm those extra drops. Ofcourse noone does it for old content anymore cause its obsolete. And just having those optional paths makes the world feel more organic. Feels like most people here dont want to play an actual MMO. Sad

[Stormpeaks]

And yet we got Brackenhide, Nokhud Offensive, Academy, Neltharus and thats just Dragonflight alone. Shadowlands had the Market for example and BFA had Waycrest Manor. People minmax Raidtrash skips yet you dont see Blizzard going the stupid "teleport to boss in a circle" Route that Square went with.

I dont even know what difficulty settings has to do with this so go on i guess. You are free to continue to excuse the lazyness of the reskin corridor simulator.




But it used to matter, kinda. People did farm those extra drops. Ofcourse noone does it for old content anymore cause its obsolete. And just having those optional paths makes the world feel more organic. Feels like most people here dont want to play an actual MMO. Sad

Dont you want to get level 40 gear as a max level character ? Obviously its your fault and the other players fault that they make it linear, you should go out of your way and get that level 40 gear !

/s

Striker44 being Striker44

[Rolder50]

Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

It was indeed the fault of the player base. Development teams get a lot of pressure to cut costs and when only 2% of players are engaging with content on a regular basis, guess what's going to get cut first. It's the stuff that the majority of players are ignoring.

But they did not turn all dungeons into one path linear corridors. Most if not all dungeons from the latest expansion have multiple possible routes and paths, with plenty of mobs you don't need to pull but can if you want. And many have items you can interact with to make the dungeon faster, or unique group buffs if you have certain professions in the group, and so on.

Far more interesting then pull to wall -> aoe -> pull to wall -> aoe.

[Allegor]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

Holminster Switch is still the most egregious example. It is literally an open field/grasslands but the actual dungeon is one very long and rather narrow corridor until right before the last boss.

Hell no, just because players like to minmax you dont start design are boring game. WoW players are one of the most min-maxing crowed amongst MMO players at least and Blizzard didnt stop designing open dungeons just because some players map out the fastest path. Stop excusing their lazy design with "but its the players fault!"

While that's also true, if we're being objective, dungeons in WoW are a genuine form of endgame content where the unconventional layouts are part of the challenge, whereas in XIV they're a "once for story and never again" deal so it kinda makes sense (still doesn't justify it tho) why there's not much thought put into them outside aesthetics.