Linear, linear, linear

[Shurrikhan]

The easiest answer to that is density allows more casual player interaction. The second obvious one is you no longer appreciate the environment because you're always flying around.

I can only think of a few places where that really applied to ARR. But, at the same time, I can equally think of as many in the Sea of Clouds, The Fringes, Tempest, etc. Both before and after flight, player density was very much 'snapped' to particular hotspots. Population wasn't more spread about the world because the world's value was more spread, but simply because any particular snapshot of all players' activity in the zone was less likely to be spent in travel in close proximity of each other (in that time moving to places of actual value to them).

You were no more likely to meet someone actually doing things not along the route between FATEs in South Shroud, Eastern La Noscea, Central Coerthas, or Eastern or Northern Thanalan, etc. than in HW zones (though I largely blame the lower relative density of gathering loops for that, if we are to include this game's shitty 'gathering' as an open world use). People just rode by what wasn't lucrative even then, just as they'd fly by it later.

The problem of most of the world seeming not worth spending time in wasn't new to larger zones. Nor were lively NPC-populated settlements fewer in, say, Dravanian Forelands than the likes of East Shroud.

I'll agree wholly that it would have been great to spread out and vary the reasons for interaction with the open world, but... that's not a mere matter of density. That's a matter of too limited of lucrative activities.

Simply shrinking zones again, for instance -- let alone to the constant invisible walls and claustrophobia of so many of ARR's zones -- isn't going to make the world more lively. It never has been. At best, it was just slightly easier to pretend otherwise before.

If we want a more lively world, we'll need to do more with the world itself, not just to shorten the distances between everything (e.g., to the absurdities of a fort within cannon-shot of another fort within cannon-shot of another fort, all to protect... no one who couldn't already be evacuated equally easily to the central fort itself [compare against the far more sensible 1.x Coerthas distribution of NPC populations]).

Detail in zones, be that environment clutter, points of interest or landmarks.

Except there's at least an equal amount [not necessarily portion or density, but yes, amount] of details (just not as necessarily of a 'populated' sort, since it's supposed to be... well, frontier), and, heck, a majority of the points of interests / landmarks / favorite views from ground level that stick in mind for me... were from the larger zones, even back when ARR's zones outnumbered them.

I guess you could also say the newer zones lost "immersion", as limited as it already is in XIV, because after ARR you rarely ever find random NPCs going about their day

Except in, you know, most of those zones?

I think a step in the right direction towards making players spend more time in the open world of XIV would be to allow the gathering node detecting skills to be on no matter the job.

Agreed. I feel like the complete separation of gathering from combat classes and gameplay was... about the worst decision they could make for trying to situate gathering interestingly in the larger world, but even just giving more opportunity to notice those nodes without having to be dressed prior in your 'mobs, please kill me in two hits' gear would be pretty big help.

[R041]

...

Size of the map definitely matters, and flying has significantly affected the amount of passerbys overall. Then obviously the next major problem is we keep making new zones every expansion while continuing to stretch the MSQ itself, so only a fraction of players are ever even doing the same content together. The only time this game's open world feels even remotely lively is weekend of a BLU update, when it should be every day. I don't know if I'd even count hunt farms - Because that's such a slog, and requires no brain power or discussion either.

Leves are gone, so even there's less reason..

This is how I remember ARR, not 100% dungeon spam: https://youtu.be/G6GtJJzkoWI

It's funny because I bet they thought it'd force players to interact with each other by only doing dungeons, but they decided to dumb those down too so most players never need to talk to finish them.

Everything requiring any form of human interaction as a game (except raid) has been entirely stripped from XIV's daily life. It feels soulless most of the time. :/

XIV is the silent single-player MMO now.

[Bunnycake]

Y-you know w-what made the game more linear for me? ... the removal of " Kaiten " !! big nods!!

On Discord every time I use that emoji it makes me think of you and Kaiten u3u

[Xaruko_Nexume]

I prefer linear. I have tried Skyrim so many times over the years because of recommendations from friends. It looks like a game I would love on paper. Then I play it, and Im just...always lost.

[Jojoya]

I was used to this being the case in Rift way back when I played that and I still miss it immensely. Traveling from point A to point B felt a lot less like wasting my time when I could gather a plant for my potions here and mine some ore for weapons there. It felt rewarding to walk places instead of teleporting because there was always stuff to find along the way.

Out of curiosity, are you thinking of their artifact system when talking about finding things along the way? That was interesting though I think it should have been fleshed out slightly more when it came to what info was on the artifacts. Get all the artifacts in a collection, report to the NPC that would then give you a small reward for the completion.

Something I would bring up in the flying debates in WoW during WoD is that it's not flying that takes away value from ground. It's the lack of content that the player wants to engage with. There are only so many times one can travel from point A to point B before they mentally start tuning it all out if there is nothing new to see along the way. A lack of flying is also more obstructive to players with less time to play and so they have to be more efficient with what time they have available. If there is content on the ground that player wants to do, they will be on the ground doing it. It's not flying that gets in the way, It's the lack of interest.

Something like RIFT's artifact system would give players who want more reason to be on the ground and exploring exactly that. You didn't know what you would find or where. Maybe it would be out in the open on a path, or maybe it would be on the branch of a tree, or even on a rooftop that required a small jumping puzzle to reach. If there was a specific artifact needed for multiple collections, it may not spawn in the same place when you try to get it for the next collection. Because the rewards generally weren't extremely generous, players not interested in engaging with the system could easily ignore it but the rewards were still enough for those who were interested (open the small chest for consumables and a chance at low level gear to use or sell, save up lucky coins to get a minion or housing item, etc.)

Again, it's not flying that's the problem. It's the lack of content that players want to do that is the problem. Some enjoy doing hunts, FATEs, gathering, etc. so they spend a lot of time in the open world. Others prefer the instance grind and so they don't.

Taking flying away isn't going to solve anything if the content isn't there to catch the player's interest. If the content is there, then players will naturally congregate where it is to help increase player interaction even if they're still able to fly.

I prefer linear. I have tried Skyrim so many times over the years because of recommendations from friends. It looks like a game I would love on paper. Then I play it, and Im just...always lost.

There is a fairly linear story to follow if you want. But it's very easy to get distracted by the side content.

[Atelier-Bagur]

On Discord every time I use that emoji it makes me think of you and Kaiten u3u

This person is fighting the good fight. We gotta keep that copium alive that one day it'll return.

[Shurrikhan]

XIV is the silent single-player MMO now.

I agree. I just don't think the symptom you're fixating on is remotely the cause, nor even a really a contributing context.

This is how I remember ARR, not 100% dungeon spam: https://youtu.be/G6GtJJzkoWI

So... you fondly remember soloing leves... rather than even... any of the group content (that was far, far more popularly done even back in ARR)? Sure, you could see a fellow player doing their leves in the distance, but you were effectively shard-ed away from one another, prevented from affecting anything they were fighting.

And, again... Heavensward didn't remove Battle Leves anyways. That didn't happen until later.

:: For my part, I remember ARR via FATEs and shout-formed dungeon groups (often missing either a healer or tank or even just running with 4 SMNs, since we could kite all but ranged enemies and Titan could boss TBs and especially AoEs just fine back then).

Everything requiring any form of human interaction as a game (except raid) has been entirely stripped from XIV's daily life. It feels soulless most of the time. :/

It still has exactly the same amount it had before, minus only leves and the hunting log after level 60 (replaced by more frequent and lucrative Clan Hunts). And that's if excluding Exploratory Missions from remotely 'open-world' content.

These problems aren't new. They've been the norm since ARR itself. The last time people actually cared about random treasure, the mob sites/camps themselves, or varied/personally set gathering loops... was in 1.x.

If you want those problems dealt with, then it'd be better to look at the disease, not just some reflection of a particular symptom.

[Iscah]

The easiest answer to that is density allows more casual player interaction. The second obvious one is you no longer appreciate the environment because you're always flying around.

Why can't you "appreciate the environment" while in flight? It gives you vast sweeping views of the environment, or you can fly low and get the same experience as walking (but faster).

[R041]

...

Soloing Leves? Just because the vid has a dude soloing them, doesn't mean we didn't do parties of zone activities.

Removing Leves contributed nothing.

Forgetting about content types contribute nothing.

Why can't you "appreciate the environment" while in flight? It gives you vast sweeping views of the environment, or you can fly low and get the same experience as walking (but faster).

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

[Iscah]

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

I don't see a difference. One way or another you are moving yourself across a landscape.