Linear, linear, linear

[TheDecay]

I was a tank main during ARR and had to drag all of y'all through those non-linear dungeons. Yes, we always took the "proper" path. But with more nuance, mechanics, enemy variety, challenges, and puzzles(!) in each dungeon, everything felt more fun. It was actually fun doing your daily roulettes. Nowadays it's a chore.

Wanderer's Palace is a prime example of good non-linear dungeon design for FF14. In the room where multiple large Tonberries are chasing you, you could take multiple paths to get to your destination. And at the same time you want to avoid those large Tonberries. It meant that depending on your team's DPS and ability, there could be an organically different route to take each time (such as needing to double back and hide for a while if your team is really slow). Of course, this can only be experienced back in ARR and HW when these actually posed any threat whatsoever. Doing Wanderer's Palace now would not give people a good idea of what it was like back in the day, though I expect the same WoWfugee contrarians to pipe up and disagree despite never having done these dungeons when they were relevant, because they did it in a roulette in 2023 and disregarded all the mechanics and survived once.

[Mikey_R]

Wanderer's Palace is a prime example of good non-linear dungeon design for FF14. In the room where multiple large Tonberries are chasing you, you could take multiple paths to get to your destination.

No you could not. The Tonberries with the oil are in specific places and the levers you need the oil for are also in set places, this creates an optimal path through the area.

Go in, hit the first one right infront of you, go right, up the slope, left into the middle room, pull the mobs through and to the right (hope someone remembers to pull the lever in the middle). The big Tonberry doesn't follow you in this area, as long as people don't stand on the main path. You can choose to pull the Tonberries from below as well, Provoke reaches after all. From there, you go down the left staircase, go right, flip the switch, tank runs up and aggros everything, someone flips the switch at the end in the corner, everyone runs back and hope people know about locking out mobs from the boss room so you don't have to deal with them.

That was the strat from the first months of the game's release. Trust me, I done it plenty of times as a tank, 10 times a week to cap tomes believe it or not as this was before roulettes and the cap was still 300.

That room alone proves that people will optimise something completely, that was done within a month. It is a complete illusion of choice.

Other cases are Toto Rak. There is technically split paths, in that dungeon, however, there is one optimal route through, which everyone does. Sunkern Temple? You used to solve the puzzle, but then the community decided that it wasn't worth solving, despite the puzzle being the same every time. 2 mob packs to solve the puzzle or, just 1 if you fail which also doesn't require you to deviate from the direct route.

However, this all comes back to what do people actually want in an optional area in a dungeon to make it worth it for everyone in the group? In a random party, not everyone is necessarily going to want to go to the side path to get an item that potentially has a large Gil selling potential (which wouldn't hold it's value), unique minion/mount? Doesn't matter if someone already has it, which then turns it into a Gil item, assuming it isn't a unique item. Some sort of gear reward? Not everyone is going to care and they aren't going to make them equal to raid or tome gear. Even tomes isn't going to necessarily be something everyone wants. Point being, there is no universal reward that will entice everyone into that area, every time.

A potential solution, if you really want split routes, is to give the dungeon split routes, but the game forces you one way or another randomly. This could cause different bosses, or the same boss with different mechanics. Since dungeons now have a narrative inside them, the last boss has to be the same, but again, you can change things dependant on the route you had to take. Is the dungeon still linear? Yes, but at least it isn't the same every time. Not that I personally really care.

[Shurrikhan]

It would be fine if it fully committed to being the best action game it could be. But it's also linear in the dimensions where action games don't want to be linear in, such as enemy combat, skill choices, weapon customization etc.

This. An Action game having little customization among its RPG elements is potentially... totally fine. But then it actually needs to have, to satisfying degree, the kinds of nuances and depth we'd expect from an Action game, rather than trash just being a carpet rolled out for their 'and then they all spontaneously combust' near-CS via Eikon skill.

If the game had difficulty modes, from the start, beyond just Easy, Easier, and Easiest, trash wasn't just a joke, and what few systems it carries for depth and skill-gap actually mattered... sure, that'd be fine.



And analogs abound in XIV itself: What is the point of Materia, if the only stat with gameplay ramifications is, 90+% of the time, to be avoided? What is the point of having all jobs available on a single job, if lockouts force you onto a single armor class when it matters and the jobs of any given role (and perhaps the roles themselves), apart from a 'flavor' and 'loser' of a given patch, play increasingly similar to one another?

It's fine to prioritize different things. I'd just rather the product of those shifted priorities not be half-assed thereafter.

No you could not. The Tonberries with the oil are in specific places and the levers you need the oil for are also in set places, this creates an optimal path through the area.

To be fair, the larger factor was in the very next sentence that you left out: in non-optimal situations, the contextually optimal path shifted, because you'd arrive at different times relative to the Tonberry's patroling position.

And they could easily force variance (rotating which path is essentially barred, which will proportionately often include the path that'd be most time-efficient if the patrol did not exist) by just varying the patrol's starting position on dungeon start.

They could also have just had more opportunities for the oils to drop (with still only the original number being required, and no further drops occurring after you had acquired enough). The means of creating non-linear pathing in that dungeon were right there, even if they weren't yet implemented in a way that'd last through wholly optimized play.

In short, I don't think you guys are in as great of disagreement as you seem to think, Mikey?

[Mikey_R]

To be fair, the larger factor was in the very next sentence that you left out: in non-optimal situations, the contextually optimal path shifted, because you'd arrive at different times relative to the Tonberry's patroling position.

And they could easily force variance (rotating which path is essentially barred, which will proportionately often include the path that'd be most time-efficient if the patrol did not exist) by just varying the patrol's starting position on dungeon start.

They could also have just had more opportunities for the oils to drop (with still only the original number being required, and no further drops occurring after you had acquired enough). The means of creating non-linear pathing in that dungeon were right there, even if they weren't yet implemented in a way that'd last through wholly optimized play.

In short, I don't think you guys are in as great of disagreement as you seem to think, Mikey?

The next sentence doesn't do anything of the sort, as I implied, you done the same thing every single time. There was no 'organically different route' based on team DPS, as the route was the same every time, it did not change.

As for the Tonberries, their locations were very predictable, which leads me to believe they do not even spawn until you are close, likely when you open the door and step into the room itself. If you want to start playing around with different spawn locations and different routes for the large Tonberries, you have to take into account that there are fixed locations you need to go to. Right at the start, the middle, by the exit door and in the NE corner is the locations for all the switches. You get enough oil for 2 switches from the room prior, so you have 2 switches left, and 2 Tonberries to kill in the room. Unless you want to start moving the locations of the little Tonberries, you will still take the same route. However, if you do start moving the spawn locations of the small Tonberries, forcing people to have to look around for them, I suspect that will just be frustrating to people rather than something people will take a liking to.

As for RNG drops to progress, you either get lucky and you can progress quicker or you get unlucky and it takes a bit longer. It is, again, going to feel frustrating when the run is going to take longer just because RNG screwed with you for no reason.

And no, it is definitely a disagreement. Their claim was you can take multiple routes based on the Tonberries, so it isn't the same every time, and I completely disagreed with that claim. That is never how the dungeon was run (baring maybe week 1 when people were learning it, but I wasn't at that point at that time) but as soon as people found the fastest route, that is the one they will take and I guarantee, after 1 week, that route would have been the standard.

The rest of my post is just about trying to make a linear dungeon seem non-linear whilst still being linear. Whether that solution will please people who wanted a non linear dungeon, who knows (probably not), however, it is still something that can make each run of the same dungeon different, to a point. Only so many routes you can make after all.

[Shurrikhan]

The next sentence doesn't do anything of the sort, as I implied, you done the same thing every single time. There was no 'organically different route' based on team DPS, as the route was the same every time, it did not change.

As for the Tonberries, their locations were very predictable, which leads me to believe they do not even spawn until you are close, likely when you open the door and step into the room itself. If you want to start playing around with different spawn locations and different routes for the large Tonberries, you have to take into account that there are fixed locations you need to go to. Right at the start, the middle, by the exit door and in the NE corner is the locations for all the switches. You get enough oil for 2 switches from the room prior, so you have 2 switches left, and 2 Tonberries to kill in the room. Unless you want to start moving the locations of the little Tonberries, you will still take the same route. However, if you do start moving the spawn locations of the small Tonberries, forcing people to have to look around for them, I suspect that will just be frustrating to people rather than something people will take a liking to.

As for RNG drops to progress, you either get lucky and you can progress quicker or you get unlucky and it takes a bit longer. It is, again, going to feel frustrating when the run is going to take longer just because RNG screwed with you for no reason.

And no, it is definitely a disagreement. Their claim was you can take multiple routes based on the Tonberries, so it isn't the same every time, and I completely disagreed with that claim.

You... did, though, unless you were just going to stand around waiting for the patrol to pass, you may well start on one side or the other. Additionally, a WHM could solo the central winch (Holy was a 5s stun at the time) while the rest of the party went left, right, or through (if pat didn't block it or one had a PLD to tank it) to grab the oils and winches from East to West or West to East by just nuking down the oil-bearer and then Sprinting onward, outranging the mobs where possible and using the boss wall to hold them in place where not. We had that shit down to a science, but it still technically had some variation.

Yes, it could have been better balanced for variety and some 80% of runs, so long as they were done at full speed, all took the same route. In the remaining 20%, though, yeah, variations happened to recover or to better make use of BLM's AoE Sleep/Blizzard II (or Holy/Miasma II) and potentially Sprint w/ Paeon.

The rest of my post is just about trying to make a linear dungeon seem non-linear whilst still being linear. Whether that solution will please people who wanted a non linear dungeon, who knows (probably not), however, it is still something that can make each run of the same dungeon different, to a point. Only so many routes you can make after all.

To my mind, it's just a matter of the added initial extent of, and the added longevity of, the dungeon's novelty vs. those obviously diminishing returns. Honestly, though, in terms of 'dungeon content novelty/longevity per hour of development time' would already seem to incentivize spending a bit more time on each dungeon (and systems encapsulating them).

In terms of varying up pathing slightly (again, less important to me than shaking up the pacing, flow, and encounters, but still worthwhile)... plopping mobs on the map doesn't take up much more time. Nor is pathable ground so much more time-intensive than making an equally interesting path or slope leading (inaccessibly) off the main trail for purely visual purposes. So, if the dungeon seems like it should look that large (even if just for visual purposes) already, then... yeah, some more paths would be cool and probably a slight net increase to value for the dungeon's distinction and longevity.

Ultimately, though, a lot of the benefit of making more interesting dungeons depends on the amount of interest that can be generated from the differences and agency within the party members' respective kits, which it turn requires that the dungeons not just be a steamroll. So... also really hoping that minimum item level difficulty would actually be worth speaking of and that the ilvl caps would fall far closer to merely the ilvl the dungeon rewards OR a real Expert Roulette (dungeons upscaled to level cap and to the party's average ilvl).

(No, I see absolutely no reason why Savage gear would "need" to "reward" players with a gutted dungeon-running experience from steamrolling the whole thing. Frankly, I'd be fine with most content having a maximum item level barely over what they reward, and just reducing the weekly grind requirements in exchange, or having the amount by which ilvl has been synced down increase rewards near-proportionately.)


EDIT: Now, if we REALLY want to incentivize more varied layouts for dungeons, then there'd simply have to be further use for those variations, even if that might not be for "Dungeons" themselves -- and instead some new content type (I used the term "Delves" before) that borrows from those prior "Dungeon" assets (to perhaps less of a visual rehaul than Hard Modes, but still likely significant).

[Striker44]

I am not responsible!

I didn't do anything except disagree with design/dungeon/job decisions and support/compliment things I liked! I've always said that fights should not be nerfed, that dungeons should not be in this straight line, or at least have the illusion of being more than just a straight hallway. I didn't insist, nor did I force SE to do dumb things that blow up in their faces later on, like Variants, which they STILL fumbled.

Umm...I wasn't referring to you. Notice how the post you quoted has me talking about "your approach" - meaning the person who I was directly quoting and responding to.

To your larger point, it's not a matter of simply "popular" trends, but an immense majority. Think about how many ARR dungeons back in the pre-revamp time actually saw parties you were in do anything but the most effective linear path (and if a group actually did anything off the direct path, were you the tank prompting it). It's not that a simple "majority" did something; it's that practically everyone did. It's just simple reality that allocating time and resources to something that very few people will see just isn't worth it from a production standpoint.

Remember, SE has engagement metrics that we don't have. If they continue designing and expanding on things like Variant Dungeons, it's because they didn't fumble them, and people by and large are enjoying and playing them. So overall, yes, if you have what amounts to a very niche take on a major part of a game, it's unfortunate but reality that you're likely going to be left disappointed. That's not a question of what "should" be, but just a mature realization of what "is."

[Shougun]

It's funny when you actually sit and think about it - Because we have these ideas in our head before the game is released. We want to believe they can do all sorts of crazy shit right. But it's clear DMC combat wouldn't work in a Souls map, and XIV dungeons also don't really work because you don't 'pull' mobs. So it's very obvious they had to conform the dungeon areas into what DMC did. After-all, that's what they'd be comfortable with, and all games of this type do that.

You kinda have to expect the tropes to all fall into place when given chunks of the same pieces.

I don't hate them (zone level designs), just surprised at some of the simplicity or lack of exploration / 'gameplay' wonderment. I say wonderment because sometimes it's a puzzle or some backtrack that makes you go "ah-ha!". I always considered the environment as a non-verbal character of the game, so interacting with it should be a deep conversation- Souls like games have good practice at silent conversations (including environment). I just felt the gameplay elements of the zones in FFXVI didn't really 'silently' talk to me. Visually, including the visual design not just 'graphic quality' of the landscapes talk very well though- I am often pleased with the visual layouts.

I do think comparing GoW in this situation makes it easier to point out they 'could' have been different, though that doesn't mean they had to be (GoW combat is vaguely similar).

Personally I think what bothers me about the open world, and is also just probably a pet-peeve in general which makes it further personal lol, is that there are so many invisible walls. I see a small rock and think I'll hop up on it and the game is like NAH, YOU GO LEFT, OR YOU GO RIGHT, AND IT GOES TO THE SAME SPOT. Me: "how about this cliff". Game: "YOU GO LEFT OR YOU GO RIGHT- YOU GO TO SAME PLACE I TELL YOU, YOU TWIT". Also probably with a preconceived notion on top of that which was they would improve FFXV's open world exploration which did have some stronger movement controls- so I was pre-hoping for smoother environment interactions. The blending from running to hoping over fences is nice, but the jump is uh.. not very useful and you can imagine most of the game as a 2d isometric (in terms of movement, not visuals obviously). Something about being stuck on the ground, essentially, in a 3d world space, really gets to my monkey brain- 404s and dial up noises right away lol.

So I had visual exploration, but I felt I didn't have much tactical exploration. I think this is made a bit worse by the fact that, and you pointed this out I believe, the general rewards for exploring is like 2 gil and some wyrite lol. Doesn't really feel worth it and doesn't really feel like exploring anyways. I do appreciate that chests get their pop-up icon though, otherwise chests would be invisible lol. Next time I hope they can try to add some more interesting rewards, recipes, music rolls, etc. Probably similar to my feeling on quests, most are fairly straight forward (mechanically- tasks/rewards), but when I did the herbal quest that rewards you better potions I was like "now that's cool, worth".

Dungeons usually have a imperative to them so it's generally okay they're linear (funny thing in Fallout 4 where you are told to save your son and you spend the next 100 hours doing anything but that), and you don't really visit those instances again.. which would be unfortunate if they were loaded with miss-ables, but maybe there should be a few instance spaces that can take more time with you lol. Nearing the end but haven't quite seen one that isn't a sort of FFXIV dungeon path.

I already thought "hm, this is fun" in the beginning but as you get the other primals and the story continues to be (imo) great, game continues to feel better and better from there. Not that I had any major negatives anyways. I think my first thought "plz think of next time" is perhaps some sort of color coded telegraphs like GoW has, I use the focus ring because some enemies are not as communicative as I would wish on their telegraph (and also more importantly I cannot see a freaking thing when I use garuda's tornado, it's awesome looking but gameplay impossible to see lol- some sort of color seeping through the noise to help you would be nice). Then perhaps the exploration with thoughts on a more rewarding (doesn't mean larger amounts of gil) experience, and potentially either more free (less walls) or more structured (like GoW). Next one would be probably making the side quests have a stronger presentation when in casual conversation, lots of nice stories and some have great presentation in action like moments, but the camera work in non-intense moments (especially side quests) reminds me strongly of FFXIV's which is a bit jarring when you go from A+ cinematography to semi-awkward fade to blacks and simple pans. Maybe as an aside but Ramuh's O constantly messes me up as my brain is trained O is for movement and then it pulls me into a HUD and makes me really slow instead lol, would replace it with something else if I could (Ramuh with lightning rod and ignition is a bit hilarious to watch).

Just finished up a few more hours of play after some MSQ and was like damn, have to wait to do more (till next available time to play).. So that's a pretty good .

Funny I said I didn't intend to comment much, but it was nice enough to talk to you that I couldn't help have small thoughts while playing XD.

[CerusSerenade]

This misconception that non-linear is somehow always superior to a linear game needs to die. There are plenty of linear games that have proven to be masterpieces.

[Shurrikhan]

This misconception that non-linear is somehow always superior to a linear game needs to die. There are plenty of linear games that have proven to be masterpieces.

I don't think anyone's conflating it with some sort of irredeemable problem so much as just an opportunity not taken (it's more just a... salient symptom, so to speak), in the same way that having no customization, or having little combat depth, or little available range in difficulty, or not having a well-crafted learning curve, or not having a responsive and intuitive UI, or having little story coherence, or having little explorable worldstory or backstory, would all be wasted opportunities that could otherwise positively affect a game's apparent quality.

[Ghost_of_Ebina]

It seems the overall direction to make sure every "required" dungeon needs to be possible to beat with NPC parties, they had to dumb-down everything.
However, even then it seems even the non-required dungeons are largely linear these days.