Linear, linear, linear

[caffe_macchiato]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

And here comes the self-flagellation. Never blame the multi-billion dollar corporation for making dismal games. Always blame the player, for they're the ones making the games, right?



I was a tank main during ARR and had to drag all of y'all through those non-linear dungeons. Yes, we always took the "proper" path. But with more nuance, mechanics, enemy variety, challenges, and puzzles(!) in each dungeon, everything felt more fun. It was actually fun doing your daily roulettes. Nowadays it's a chore.

No wonder people have given up on gameplay and instead use this game as a Second Life clone. There's nothing else to do here.

P.S. It's repulsive that the attitude of the FFXIV community is to blame the common man for what a wealthy corporation is doing. Brands have hypnotized the people.

[Shinkuno]

Again, dungeons end up linear because of players. Players are the ones who want to get in and out of dungeons as fast as possible. Multiple paths are meaningless if the player base decides on a most efficient route and sticks to using it every time. There's no point in creating multiple paths if players aren't going to deviate from the optimal route. It's just a waste of developer time that could be spent on other projects.

Developers are usually more than happy to get the opportunity to flex their creative skills. It's the budget allocation given to a project that holds those opportunities in check.

Variant was a nice step toward creating meaningful multiple path dungeons but they still need a lot of work before they'll get there.

So why arent rotations 1 button yet that automatically cycle through the objectively best rotation? No, they design linear dungeons because its easy and cost-effective. Maybe other devs like the flex, square definitely doesnt. Stop excusing their lazyness with "but its the players fault "

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

So why arent rotations 1 button yet that automatically cycle through the objectively best rotation? No, they design linear dungeons because its easy and cost-effective. Maybe other devs like the flex, square definitely doesnt. Stop excusing their lazyness with "but its the players fault "

Uh... someone managed to make a working 1 button rotation macro for SMN.

Jobs are already slowly approaching to that point.

[Striker44]

And here comes the self-flagellation. Never blame the multi-billion dollar corporation for making dismal games. Always blame the player, for they're the ones making the games, right?

Seriously, this is where the non-stop negativity just makes certain people's opinions not worth developers listening to. The point I made is straight-up reality. Apparently your approach is never take any blame for anything, always blame others (even when you're responsible)...

[R041]

I usually play in a assuming design sweeping pattern by that I mean I assume the developer's thoughts and work through the space in an attempted efficiency (you can see the design decisions that guide players, lights, shapes, halls, etc, sometimes literally if a marker system is in place, and choose to go the other direction and often be rewarded), and imo the level design feels really simple and not Dark Souls in comparable level design tier.

Opinions are like chocobo butts though and we all have one so we can agree to disagree and that be fine, but my sweeping pattern for this game felt like I was using really simple mental algorithm and no 'exploration'. Vs some of the other games I listed, or Dark Souls as you referenced.

As posted above though I would caution simply responding to the feedback with 'make it more convoluted', or that it has visual issues.

No you're right - It's not exactly level design like Dark Souls. Just that the levels themselves aren't directly hallways, and have more general freedom. But if you just follow MSQ - You'll be going along a set direction. There's a lot of freedom to stop and look around, and walk in a different direction to check stuff out, do side quests, whatever. And it's not like the MSQ itself discards an area entirely when you walk through it. You go through it multiple times, talk to different people, do different things.

MSQ Dungeons are more like DMC dungeons, not XIV. Where there's some open-ness to them at times, but it's ultimately a few chunks dedicated to mobs, and bosses.

[Shougun]

No you're right - It's not exactly level design like Dark Souls. Just that the levels themselves aren't directly hallways, and have more general freedom. But if you just follow MSQ - You'll be going along a set direction. There's a lot of freedom to stop and look around, and walk in a different direction to check stuff out, do side quests, whatever. And it's not like the MSQ itself discards an area entirely when you walk through it. You go through it multiple times, talk to different people, do different things.

MSQ Dungeons are more like DMC dungeons, not XIV. Where there's some open-ness to them at times, but it's ultimately a few chunks dedicated to mobs, and bosses.

I find your statements agreeable. It is also is probably person perspective particular, like I would 'want' something more cleverly looped and puzzled like GoW or near Souls tier pinnacle design or alternatively more extreme the other direction (at least for open world); however, yeah when we think of DMC design.. pretty much that's the exact design style lol. I wouldn't attribute DMC to fantastic level design either; however, those games make plenty of money and many like it (and the combat arenas are the focus). So definitely not saying it's a garbage fire haha, just that it wasn't really what I thought it might have been if it was existing in a pinnacle form.

[OdinelStarrei]

Seriously, this is where the non-stop negativity just makes certain people's opinions not worth developers listening to. The point I made is straight-up reality. Apparently your approach is never take any blame for anything, always blame others (even when you're responsible)...

I am not responsible!

I didn't do anything except disagree with design/dungeon/job decisions and support/compliment things I liked! I've always said that fights should not be nerfed, that dungeons should not be in this straight line, or at least have the illusion of being more than just a straight hallway. I didn't insist, nor did I force SE to do dumb things that blow up in their faces later on, like Variants, which they STILL fumbled.

What is your endgame here? Are players who really want additional complexity simultaneously a minority that doesn't matter ergo shouldn't be listened to by developers AND the speed runner people responsible for killing more unique dungeons because Square Enix HAD to acquiesce to popular trends? "The enemy is too weak to acknowledge, but also so strong we need to allocate resources to resist them." We have Trusts now in almost all 4-man dungeon content going forward, players who want to explore HAVE that option without any judgement, and even now, with content like Deep Dungeons, full clears/exploration for silvers is far from uncommon. Yet the linearity, and simplicity continues. Why are WE getting blamed for Square Enix's choices, the ones they have barely ever added any transparency on? I don't appreciate being seen as a scapegoat! "Oh no, the players did what players do in every popular game ever made, no way we could have ever seen this coming, and designed for it accordingly."

??????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Rufalus]

Streamlining things down to a main scenario tunnel is another big part of the problem. At their peak, the FF games were accompanied by thick strategy guides full of secrets, some of them so obtuse that it made you think "how the f**k was I supposed to know that?", but it was all part of the series identity. There was a very unique style that separated the series from just any other story-based games out there.

FF XVI doesn't really have any puzzles, any fun minigames, any large cities that can be fully explored with events other than battles, any significant optional/secret zones to discover, any big mysteries to discuss. It's not a terrible game in its own right, but we feel strongly about it because it replaced the old FF signature style. They killed the series people loved and replaced it with a linear story action series.

Yoshida felt S-E needed to regain trust after XV, but XVI is his solution? Funnily enough XV began as a spin-off title because it was too different. They were to brand it Versus XIII until development hell and sunken cost forced them to position it as a mainline title to boost sales. Action games are supposed to be spin-offs like Crisis Core. The core series was what we called JRPG. Then they went from the 4-man action of XV to the 1-man army XVI. No party, no airship, no strategy, no meaningful stats, no RPG, no Final Fantasy.

[R041]

I find your statements agreeable. It is also is probably person perspective particular, like I would 'want' something more cleverly looped and puzzled like GoW or near Souls tier pinnacle design or alternatively more extreme the other direction (at least for open world); however, yeah when we think of DMC design.. pretty much that's the exact design style lol. I wouldn't attribute DMC to fantastic level design either; however, those games make plenty of money and many like it (and the combat arenas are the focus). So definitely not saying it's a garbage fire haha, just that it wasn't really what I thought it might have been if it was existing in a pinnacle form.

It's funny when you actually sit and think about it - Because we have these ideas in our head before the game is released. We want to believe they can do all sorts of crazy shit right. But it's clear DMC combat wouldn't work in a Souls map, and XIV dungeons also don't really work because you don't 'pull' mobs. So it's very obvious they had to conform the dungeon areas into what DMC did. After-all, that's what they'd be comfortable with, and all games of this type do that.

You kinda have to expect the tropes to all fall into place when given chunks of the same pieces.

[TheDecay]

Streamlining things down to a main scenario tunnel is another big part of the problem. At their peak, the FF games were accompanied by thick strategy guides full of secrets, some of them so obtuse that it made you think "how the f**k was I supposed to know that?", but it was all part of the series identity. There was a very unique style that separated the series from just any other story-based games out there.

FF XVI doesn't really have any puzzles, any fun minigames, any large cities that can be fully explored with events other than battles, any significant optional/secret zones to discover, any big mysteries to discuss. It's not a terrible game in its own right, but we feel strongly about it because it replaced the old FF signature style. They killed the series people loved and replaced it with a linear story action series.

Yoshida felt S-E needed to regain trust after XV, but XVI is his solution? Funnily enough XV began as a spin-off title because it was too different. They were to brand it Versus XIII until development hell and sunken cost forced them to position it as a mainline title to boost sales. Action games are supposed to be spin-offs like Crisis Core. The core series was what we called JRPG. Then they went from the 4-man action of XV to the 1-man army XVI. No party, no airship, no strategy, no meaningful stats, no RPG, no Final Fantasy.

It would be fine if it fully committed to being the best action game it could be. But it's also linear in the dimensions where action games don't want to be linear in, such as enemy combat, skill choices, weapon customization etc.

Yoshi P said this game is like a rollercoaster. Indeed it is, because you have to ride the rollercoaster on a fixed path designed for you and cannot make any of your own choices.