Linear, linear, linear

[DiaDeem]

I'll take a focused linear fun adventure over an open world map 9 Billion miles across where all there is is grass, the same 3 enemy types, 4 meaningless dungeons that offer no challenge, and yet another f*cking shrine for the 589th time. I'm so tired of open world games. Elden Ring did it right one last time, and that's about it. I'll take games like GOW (either of the new ones), RE4 (OG or remake) or FFXVI over Starfield or either of the last two Zelda games every time.

The Linkle mod for BotW was neat though.

[Jojoya]

And yet we got Brackenhide, Nokhud Offensive, Academy, Neltharus and thats just Dragonflight alone. Shadowlands had the Market for example and BFA had Waycrest Manor. People minmax Raidtrash skips yet you dont see Blizzard going the stupid "teleport to boss in a circle" Route that Square went with

But they did not turn all dungeons into one path linear corridors. Most if not all dungeons from the latest expansion have multiple possible routes and paths, with plenty of mobs you don't need to pull but can if you want. And many have items you can interact with to make the dungeon faster, or unique group buffs if you have certain professions in the group, and so on.

Far more interesting then pull to wall -> aoe -> pull to wall -> aoe.

They stopped creating multi-path dungeons? Is that why 75% of dungeons even in this latest expansion are... multi-path dungeons?

I haven't played WoW since end of Legion so I have no idea what the new expansion dungeons are like.

Yes, they had stopped making the multi-path dungeons where you had true options on how to complete the dungeon. The closest you would get would be the dungeons that were set up in wings but you still have to clear every wing before you could proceed to the final boss.

If they've brought back multi-path dungeons in Dragonflight similar to what they were designing in Vanilla, great. If you still have to clear everything like The Nexus, then it's moot because you're really not being given choice if you have to clear all routes regardless to get to the end.

But there is still that 14 year gap where they had stopped making them. That the game is finally adding new ones after all those years may be experimental in nature. They're trying to figure out exactly what players are looking for in content after over a decade of ignoring the player feedback.

If players go back to skipping a large portion of the dungeons in favor of following an optimal route, it's very doubtful Executive management will allow the dev team to go to the additional effort (not to mention cost) of making the multipath dungeons in the future. It's got nothing to do with the developers wanting to be lazy with design (they've usually got far more ideas than it's possible to implement) and everything to do with the top of the corporate foodchain penny pinching. Those who hold the purse ultimately control the strings.

[Shurrikhan]

I haven't played WoW since end of Legion so I have no idea what the new expansion dungeons are like.

Yes, they had stopped making the multi-path dungeons where you had true options on how to complete the dungeon. The closest you would get would be the dungeons that were set up in wings but you still have to clear every wing before you could proceed to the final boss.

That... is a multi-path dungeon. If you can go 1234, 2314, 3214, etc.... that's... already multiple paths available. And that's all WoW has ever had within Vanilla, either, so there's been no "stop" there; it's the same capacity (though expanded, in some cases). And well beyond even 1.x outside of old Totorak (3 exits, with the furthest one giving more rewards, but increasingly risking death to the gasses inside [timer mechanic]).

Unless you're looking for a dungeon that is itself multiple dungeons, so that you only complete some third of it per run... how would that not fit the descriptor?

(Frequently, the individual mobs outside a boss foreshadow the mechanics of that boss, while the bosses leading up to the final may foreshadow the mechanics of the final boss. As such, I'm fine with the final boss truly being the final boss in the interest of the mechanics feeling thematically approached and less seemingly arbitrary than they otherwise would be.)

Some Dragonflight dungeons, for context:
Nokhud Offensive (any order, save for final boss)

Brackenhide Hollow (first and final bosses set order, multiple paths through all the mid-content)

[Jojoya]

That... is a multi-path dungeon. If you can go 1234, 2314, 3214, etc.... that's... already multiple paths available. And that's all WoW has ever had within Vanilla, either, so there's been no "stop" there; it's the same capacity (though expanded, in some cases). And well beyond even 1.x outside of old Totorak (3 exits, with the furthest one giving more rewards, but increasingly risking death to the gasses inside [timer mechanic]).

And what did the player base decide about those dungeons? Since the rewards and bosses would be the same regardless of what order you did them in, the player base decided that the 3214 order was the most efficient route so every group would automatically go 3214. The occasional random player who wanted to go 1324 would get left for dead at best if they didn't rejoin the rest of the group or kicked out of the group at worst.

At that point, the dungeon might as well be linear when groups are going to follow the same route every time regardless. There's nothing gained (or lost) by going a different route outside of an extra minute of time.

Variant has a nice concept that's the start to making multi-path dungeons interesting but there's still a lot of room for improvement. Imagine alternate paths that lead to altars that grant a group buffs, with those buffs granting different benefits to the group at the same time they subtly alter boss mechanics (as we see in the current Variant based on route choice or interaction with various objects). Groups would could choose their route depending on which buff would be most beneficial to the group comp's strengths and weaknesses since the Variant actions make the usual T-H-D-D comp unnecessary. Or perhaps route choice would change what the boss loot drops are. Defeating optional bosses could make the final boss harder with better rewards or weaker with lesser rewards.

There's no point in making multi-path dungeons if the choice of route doesn't have the potential to impact the overall experience in some meaningful way.

[Shinkuno]

And what did the player base decide about those dungeons? Since the rewards and bosses would be the same regardless of what order you did them in, the player base decided that the 3214 order was the most efficient route so every group would automatically go 3214. The occasional random player who wanted to go 1324 would get left for dead at best if they didn't rejoin the rest of the group or kicked out of the group at worst.

At that point, the dungeon might as well be linear when groups are going to follow the same route every time regardless. There's nothing gained (or lost) by going a different route outside of an extra minute of time.

Variant has a nice concept that's the start to making multi-path dungeons interesting but there's still a lot of room for improvement. Imagine alternate paths that lead to altars that grant a group buffs, with those buffs granting different benefits to the group at the same time they subtly alter boss mechanics (as we see in the current Variant based on route choice or interaction with various objects). Groups would could choose their route depending on which buff would be most beneficial to the group comp's strengths and weaknesses since the Variant actions make the usual T-H-D-D comp unnecessary. Or perhaps route choice would change what the boss loot drops are. Defeating optional bosses could make the final boss harder with better rewards or weaker with lesser rewards.

There's no point in making multi-path dungeons if the choice of route doesn't have the potential to impact the overall experience in some meaningful way.

Do you have some more mental gymnastics why Square putting 0 effort into the dungeons is actually a good thing? Lmao. Imagine paying a monthly sub and then doing unpaid shill work. 7000 Posts in 5 years, man the game must have so much content.

[Shurrikhan]

<snip>

So, the problem of Blizzard's modern dungeons is that "stopped" having multiple paths... despite their coming to actually have more and freer paths (up to and including being a literal whole zone) and being better able to select which mobs one actually wants to fight...

...and even the old pre-ruined dungeons were also not enough, because they weren't Variant (gimmicky overstuffed combat hallways with regularly placed forks with less aesthetic identity than most games' procedurally generated instance environments)?

There's no point in making multi-path dungeons if the choice of route doesn't have the potential to impact the overall experience in some meaningful way.

Honestly, I could agree with this. But that's just the thing: I absolutely feel like M+ pathing choice in De Other Side (especially under Prideful), Siege of Boralus (especially under Nzoth affix), Azure Vault, Brakenhide, etc. still allowed for far more impact on the overall experience than did hitting the Left/Right switch in X particular combination in Variant dungeons.

To me, you're pointing at some fresh woodwork and calling it stinky only to stick your nose in some dank mold and declare "Ahh, yes, this would be better."

Your preferring every pathing option to solely be a choice marked by an external mechanic, over any of various granular-but-cumulative differences is... a preference. Subjective. It's not something objectively superior.


Edit:

Again, I don't think making each and every dungeon especially allow for multiple paths is likely to be a worthwhile expense and my main concern is in ways of just at least feeling less linear and feeling like a novel experience... but for dungeons to feel diverse and fleshed out, even just along that primary route, it will often be worthwhile for the art to at least hint at other routes and to flesh out more than just the pathable hallway... at which point particularly pretty dungeons are very likely to be worth adding additional pathing options to, which might in turn incentivize other little additions that would from there seem like low-hanging fruit.

The main thing for me isn't whether they're linear or not --that's just a iconic characteristic that's synecdochal for so many other problems, too-- but rather that they're so unambitious and unvaried in their mechanics and especially their layouts, practically wasting their differences in the art itself. I really want more (and more engaging) light party content, rather than just to feel like I'm getting reskins of the same things that's been run 1000 times instead of actually new dungeons.

[Kaurhz]

If they weren't 'linear' before, and turned linear, then that is only because the design decision surrounding the dungeons is a result of how people were playing them. Skipping everything optional and that wasn't in the direct path between the spawn and the first boss, or from boss to boss for that matter.

It's well and good to want less linearity in dungeons, but this is largely just a platitude. The nature and purpose of doing dungeons pretty much erase any incentive to... Not be linear. Unless dungeons can properly incentivize this then it's difficult.

What will it give? Better gear than what you may traditionally get in the dungeon? Rare rewards one can sell for Gil? They've tried this and people couldn't even be bothered to kill 3 extra enemies in Haukke Manor, despite the fact that the room they were blocking offered Fine Varnish, which at the time if it dropped would offer effectively 50-80K Gil.

[TheDecay]

Same I find it sad there everything has to be so one side or the other there is no reasoning or ability to comprehend things don’t always fit that way. Anyone saying 16 is too linear clearly hasn’t played other FFs. 10 was linear maps as well with only one big map towards the end, it’s more the illusion of it being grander which I think 16 achieves for what I’ve played. 13 made everything feel claustrophobic even though it’s about as linear as 10. End of the day people are never happy you could literally give them concrete evidence of them being just as linear as each other yet people won’t believe you cause it doesn’t fit their narrative.

The only thing I will agree on is the lack of secrets or hidden areas like on say the pixel era. Granted that could change but for now I agree. End of the day they made the game they wanted to make and I’ve enjoyed it a lot. Can’t wait to keep playing it in all honesty.

10, 13, and 16 are ALL docked points because of their linearity. The difference is that as we advance to 2023, people are less tolerating of outright 13-style linearity when games like GoW disguise their linearity far, far better than 16, with far more intricate sidequests than 16, better combat and more player choice for combat than 16, and hell GoW has more RPG elements than 16 which is just sae.

[TheDecay]

Youre probably trying to help me not get mad but I hate absolute extremism from the fanbase

People can see your post history you know?

You are like maybe second to Vel.

[TheDecay]

Linear isn't as much of a problem as Formulaic.

I don't hate linear dungeons, I hate the fact dungeons in this game are 2 pulls, wall, boss, repeated 3 times, and have been for nearly 10 years.

And sadly FF16 dungeons feel like Expert roulettes too