Linear, linear, linear

[Jojoya]

Hell no, just because players like to minmax you dont start design are boring game. WoW players are one of the most min-maxing crowed amongst MMO players at least and Blizzard didnt stop designing open dungeons just because some players map out the fastest path. Stop excusing their lazy design with "but its the players fault!"

Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

It was indeed the fault of the player base. Development teams get a lot of pressure to cut costs and when only 2% of players are engaging with content on a regular basis, guess what's going to get cut first. It's the stuff that the majority of players are ignoring.

You did know that WoW almost lost raiding altogether toward the end of The Burning Crusade, didn't you? Executive management didn't like that only 2% of the player base was completing the raids. They felt it was a waste of money that should be spent on content a larger part of the player base would do and were pressuring the development team to redirect the manpower to other content development. That's why the diversity of raid difficulties was added in Wrath and expanded on even more during later expansions. It was to get more players into raiding so the developers wouldn't be forced to cut it from the game. It almost backfired when they tried to move raiding back to more difficult in Cataclysm from the casual friendly style they had adopted for Wrath. And so the casual raid modes became a staple of the game.

[Shinkuno]

Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

It was indeed the fault of the player base. Development teams get a lot of pressure to cut costs and when only 2% of players are engaging with content on a regular basis, guess what's going to get cut first. It's the stuff that the majority of players are ignoring.

You did know that WoW almost lost raiding altogether toward the end of The Burning Crusade, didn't you? Executive management didn't like that only 2% of the player base was completing the raids. They felt it was a waste of money that should be spent on content a larger part of the player base would do and were pressuring the development team to redirect the manpower to other content development. That's why the diversity of raid difficulties was added in Wrath and expanded on even more during later expansions. It was to get more players into raiding so the developers wouldn't be forced to cut it from the game. It almost backfired when they tried to move raiding back to more difficult in Cataclysm from the casual friendly style they had adopted for Wrath. And so the casual raid modes became a staple of the game.

And yet we got Brackenhide, Nokhud Offensive, Academy, Neltharus and thats just Dragonflight alone. Shadowlands had the Market for example and BFA had Waycrest Manor. People minmax Raidtrash skips yet you dont see Blizzard going the stupid "teleport to boss in a circle" Route that Square went with.

I dont even know what difficulty settings has to do with this so go on i guess. You are free to continue to excuse the lazyness of the reskin corridor simulator.

Except they've already done that, and we've responded in the same way. Extra gear in Haukke Manor from using additional keys to open more rooms. Upgraded drops in the second part of Cutter's Cry from killing all the mobs in a room before opening the chests. None of it mattered. (Heck, in that second part of Cutter's Cry, groups used to kill one pack and move on...now we don't even bother doing that and just run straight to the portals to the next rooms.) Simply put, it's likely impossible to find something "suitably" rewarding that the playerbase in general will spend that extra time. It's not SE's fault. At all.

But it used to matter, kinda. People did farm those extra drops. Ofcourse noone does it for old content anymore cause its obsolete. And just having those optional paths makes the world feel more organic. Feels like most people here dont want to play an actual MMO. Sad

[Stormpeaks]

And yet we got Brackenhide, Nokhud Offensive, Academy, Neltharus and thats just Dragonflight alone. Shadowlands had the Market for example and BFA had Waycrest Manor. People minmax Raidtrash skips yet you dont see Blizzard going the stupid "teleport to boss in a circle" Route that Square went with.

I dont even know what difficulty settings has to do with this so go on i guess. You are free to continue to excuse the lazyness of the reskin corridor simulator.




But it used to matter, kinda. People did farm those extra drops. Ofcourse noone does it for old content anymore cause its obsolete. And just having those optional paths makes the world feel more organic. Feels like most people here dont want to play an actual MMO. Sad

Dont you want to get level 40 gear as a max level character ? Obviously its your fault and the other players fault that they make it linear, you should go out of your way and get that level 40 gear !

/s

Striker44 being Striker44

[Rolder50]

Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

It was indeed the fault of the player base. Development teams get a lot of pressure to cut costs and when only 2% of players are engaging with content on a regular basis, guess what's going to get cut first. It's the stuff that the majority of players are ignoring.

But they did not turn all dungeons into one path linear corridors. Most if not all dungeons from the latest expansion have multiple possible routes and paths, with plenty of mobs you don't need to pull but can if you want. And many have items you can interact with to make the dungeon faster, or unique group buffs if you have certain professions in the group, and so on.

Far more interesting then pull to wall -> aoe -> pull to wall -> aoe.

[Allegor]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

Holminster Switch is still the most egregious example. It is literally an open field/grasslands but the actual dungeon is one very long and rather narrow corridor until right before the last boss.

Hell no, just because players like to minmax you dont start design are boring game. WoW players are one of the most min-maxing crowed amongst MMO players at least and Blizzard didnt stop designing open dungeons just because some players map out the fastest path. Stop excusing their lazy design with "but its the players fault!"

While that's also true, if we're being objective, dungeons in WoW are a genuine form of endgame content where the unconventional layouts are part of the challenge, whereas in XIV they're a "once for story and never again" deal so it kinda makes sense (still doesn't justify it tho) why there's not much thought put into them outside aesthetics.

[Shurrikhan]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional.

This is... a bit disingenuous.

We haven't seen anything approaching dungeons with truly multiple paths since 1.x. We had optional side paths, but they were typically dull corridors you'd have to then backtrack right back through and doing them provided less rewards per minute than just skipping them.

In a group of randomly matched players with varying available time and assumption of how long the run should take, there's already going to be a skew towards fastest runs, yes, but it was predominantly just because the rewards were just clearly not worth the time* required and felt like low-effort tack-ons (outside of Sastasha and maybe the one lower chest in Darkhold) that people skipped them even when those dungeons were relevant.

Add to that the sidepaths rewards' completely failing to scale in any way for roulette-runners who no longer need the gear, and, yeah, there was a fundamental issue with the design of side-paths. It wasn't just an "us" issue, or even primarily one.

[Shougun]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

For MMO / dungeons I'm not entirely surprised, though I feel there might be some ideas that could fly with the culture (just probably not in a standard concept).

However, given a single player RPG.... I mean.. clearly No? There are a lot of non-linear dungeons in absolutely famous, profitable, games. There is also linearly non-linear designs, which I just made up the wording, but take those dungeons where they have puzzles and wrap arounds that you're mostly supposed to go through by a particular path, with some branching, and as you explore via metroid-like/castlevania-like unlocks the place gets larger and fuller while also unlocking QoL. Souls, GoW, and even sometimes Bethesda games have this. I would be disappointed if someone tries to argue a hub in a zone in FFXVI counts as that since you start at the hub and branch out in one direction, just cause that hub ends up with multiple branches imo doesn't compare to a game that is wrapping around itself like a key ladder kicked down in a Souls game (I think traversing through the space vs using it like a train station might be one of the reasons why it doesn't, imo, apply).

Because it's a negative comment I have to remind that I do like FFXVI, but if someone was like 'quickly pick something you think they need to do better next time' I would definitely say level design is one of them, at least in gameplay regions. Not visually, but mechanically. The level design is just simple, it's not cleverly simple, or open and free, it's constricted and simple. Hilariously, in non-combat regions they have many layered multiple pathed areas, many town / airship spaces are very non-linear (and took me a little bit to explore, like Lostwing lol).

I wouldn't say simply having loop backs or useless multi-paths makes it exciting, as that might be a take away and that's not the point, but I would personally lean to either open and freeing (doesn't mean purely open world but, not feeling like I'm on strict rails) or cleverly linear (like GoW). Currently it's neither freeing (loads of invisible walls) nor feels very clever, that sounds like an insult and is not intended as one (opposite of clever might sound like a pejorative, I am NOT saying that but probably am saying 'simple / straight forward' feeling).

There are a lot of games with good level design but some things that stick out to me are some of the Souls games (in general, but like Sens fortress maybe), GoW (new ones), Dishonoured (especially that mansion, may look at Hitmans or Deus Ex for multi-approach as well), Prey, Metroid and Castlevanyia (but keep in mind it's 2d... doesn't translate as smoothly), perhaps Portal for puzzles that unfold themselves yet don't make you feel handheld, etc. Lots of good examples but those ones popped into my mind at first.

Who in this thread is actually playing XVI? It sounds like a lot of people aren't, and you're kinda just talking to talk. Because yeah it's linear. But it's more like old FF linear, not XIV linear.

Some of the 'dungeons' are mostly just DMC linear, not really designed like XIV linearity. Most dungeons have small branches, and some secrets. So it definitely doesn't feel like I'm just auto-running forward like XIV. Mob placement isn't 2 pulls > boss > 2 pulls > boss.. It's more chaotic than that, but it DOES have DMC style 'rooms' and corridors. It's not all string to circle.

If you also open the Location Map, you'll see everything is connected, so it kinda feels like Dark Souls in that way (not Elden Ring).






ALSO - For anyone looking at the main world map and thinking it's all 'Teleport here for small zone' It's also not that. It's more like a bunch of very large areas with multiple Aetherytes. Every teleport option you have on the map goes to an Aetheryte in open world basically. You can see in the second pic it has 3 Aetherytes just in that area. And those are large exploration areas. There's so much misinformation. lol

Anyway - I have my XVI criticisms, but I'm not gonna pretend what it is or isn't.

I usually play in a assuming design sweeping pattern by that I mean I assume the developer's thoughts and work through the space in an attempted efficiency (you can see the design decisions that guide players, lights, shapes, halls, etc, sometimes literally if a marker system is in place, and choose to go the other direction and often be rewarded), and imo the level design feels really simple and not Dark Souls in comparable level design tier.

Opinions are like chocobo butts though and we all have one so we can agree to disagree and that be fine, but my sweeping pattern for this game felt like I was using really simple mental algorithm and no 'exploration'. Vs some of the other games I listed, or Dark Souls as you referenced.

As posted above though I would caution simply responding to the feedback with 'make it more convoluted', or that it has visual issues.

[R041]

I usually play in a assuming design sweeping pattern by that I mean I assume the developer's thoughts and work through the space in an attempted efficiency (you can see the design decisions that guide players, lights, shapes, halls, etc, sometimes literally if a marker system is in place, and choose to go the other direction and often be rewarded), and imo the level design feels really simple and not Dark Souls in comparable level design tier.

Opinions are like chocobo butts though and we all have one so we can agree to disagree and that be fine, but my sweeping pattern for this game felt like I was using really simple mental algorithm and no 'exploration'. Vs some of the other games I listed, or Dark Souls as you referenced.

As posted above though I would caution simply responding to the feedback with 'make it more convoluted', or that it has visual issues.

No you're right - It's not exactly level design like Dark Souls. Just that the levels themselves aren't directly hallways, and have more general freedom. But if you just follow MSQ - You'll be going along a set direction. There's a lot of freedom to stop and look around, and walk in a different direction to check stuff out, do side quests, whatever. And it's not like the MSQ itself discards an area entirely when you walk through it. You go through it multiple times, talk to different people, do different things.

MSQ Dungeons are more like DMC dungeons, not XIV. Where there's some open-ness to them at times, but it's ultimately a few chunks dedicated to mobs, and bosses.

[Shougun]

No you're right - It's not exactly level design like Dark Souls. Just that the levels themselves aren't directly hallways, and have more general freedom. But if you just follow MSQ - You'll be going along a set direction. There's a lot of freedom to stop and look around, and walk in a different direction to check stuff out, do side quests, whatever. And it's not like the MSQ itself discards an area entirely when you walk through it. You go through it multiple times, talk to different people, do different things.

MSQ Dungeons are more like DMC dungeons, not XIV. Where there's some open-ness to them at times, but it's ultimately a few chunks dedicated to mobs, and bosses.

I find your statements agreeable. It is also is probably person perspective particular, like I would 'want' something more cleverly looped and puzzled like GoW or near Souls tier pinnacle design or alternatively more extreme the other direction (at least for open world); however, yeah when we think of DMC design.. pretty much that's the exact design style lol. I wouldn't attribute DMC to fantastic level design either; however, those games make plenty of money and many like it (and the combat arenas are the focus). So definitely not saying it's a garbage fire haha, just that it wasn't really what I thought it might have been if it was existing in a pinnacle form.

[R041]

I find your statements agreeable. It is also is probably person perspective particular, like I would 'want' something more cleverly looped and puzzled like GoW or near Souls tier pinnacle design or alternatively more extreme the other direction (at least for open world); however, yeah when we think of DMC design.. pretty much that's the exact design style lol. I wouldn't attribute DMC to fantastic level design either; however, those games make plenty of money and many like it (and the combat arenas are the focus). So definitely not saying it's a garbage fire haha, just that it wasn't really what I thought it might have been if it was existing in a pinnacle form.

It's funny when you actually sit and think about it - Because we have these ideas in our head before the game is released. We want to believe they can do all sorts of crazy shit right. But it's clear DMC combat wouldn't work in a Souls map, and XIV dungeons also don't really work because you don't 'pull' mobs. So it's very obvious they had to conform the dungeon areas into what DMC did. After-all, that's what they'd be comfortable with, and all games of this type do that.

You kinda have to expect the tropes to all fall into place when given chunks of the same pieces.