Linear, linear, linear

[Hurlstone]

Open world does not always make for a better experience, personally speaking the open world element actively put me off games like Dragon Age Inquisition. Currently playing and really enjoying FFXVI, and I like that its a more linear experience... that said, I do have issues with it. There is enough space in most maps to explore but it often feels unworthy to do so unless you have a quest, and tiresome before you get a mount. What rewards you do find from going off the path are little more then crafting items, and given how weak that system is in the game, its unfortunate. Perhaps it will change when I am deeper into the game.

As for FFXIV, I would like more reasons to explore the open world, though with dungeons I am fine with how they are, mostly because the MMO mindset of most players is to do things quick and swiftly. Players will always find a way to cheeses things to make them faster, or take the moist ‘optimum’ route no matter what incentives there are. Its the same with every other MMO I have played. At least SE do not put important, unrepeatable quests and dialogue moments in its dunegons… yes, that was a dig at you ESO. I love ya, but hate how MMO you are. If anything I would rather we get more variation in bosses then dungeon layout, like some fights that have puzzle elements or involve NPCs etc. Always boggle my mind that Bardam's Mettle is like the only one with a boss fight that does not have a combat element to it. More like that I say!

[Catwho]

Open world does not always make for a better experience, personally speaking the open world element actively put me off games like Dragon Age Inquisition. Currently playing and really enjoying FFXVI, and I like that its a more linear experience... that said, I do have issues with it. There is enough space in most maps to explore but it often feels unworthy to do so unless you have a quest, and tiresome before you get a mount. What rewards you do find from going off the path are little more then crafting items, and given how weak that system is in the game, its unfortunate. Perhaps it will change when I am deeper into the game.

I found a few hidden side paths that were not obvious until I was trying to track down a hunt for a quest. I was forced to open the map and stare at them because the quest called out a location I hadn't unlocked, despite being in that area multiple times for MSQ.

There were two tiny little paths leading off the field area.

I went down the first one and ran face first into an S rank hunt mob. NOPE NOPE NOPE NOT WHAT I WAS HERE FOR lol

Finally found the second missing one that had the name of the area I was looking for, and killed the B rank I'd actually been after.

I'm sure there's tons of tiny little hidden pockets in the field areas like that I missed. That's why you get an achievement for unlocking all the maps by the end of the game.

[Deo14]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

That's understandable in MMORPG, but people don't meta game single player games like that, especially on the first playthrough. Open world, branching dungeons, elemental resistances and similar systems will be taken advantages of or minmaxed, but in single player games, it doesn't matter, you're not peer pressured, if you find some cool stuff you can do or cool places you can go, then just do it.

FF16 already has those easy mode rings or whatever, and it's up to you if you want to use them or play the game properly. If people truly want to metagame 16, they would just use them, but that's not the case for majority of players, they do want to play the game. Which is why you can't just put FFXIV and other FFs into the same basket, FFXIV has reasons why everything is so linear, and other FFs just don't have any excuses and should do better. After all, what's the point of RPG when you have so little choices? Why won't you make movie or some show instead?

[NekoMataMata]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

But then you could say that it's SE's fault for not putting anything interesting in the optional paths that motivates people to deviate.

[TheMightyMollusk]

But then you could say that it's SE's fault for not putting anything interesting in the optional paths that motivates people to deviate.

Wouldn't really matter what they put there. Sooner or later, people would just ignore it to get the content over with. Dungeon gear isn't incentive enough, because it doesn't last long enough to be worth the effort; minions, mounts, and other collectibles are one-and-done, so nobody cares to keep going for them again and again (and if they're tradeable, they'd either be some low RNG chance of dropping, or guaranteed drops that won't hold value for long, so it still wouldn't be worth it); experience, gil, tomes, and materia are easily acquired from so many other sources that it'd be pointless; and, as criterion dungeons show, just having more interesting fights isn't enough for people to care if the rewards aren't worthwhile.

It's really just an inherent flaw in daily repeatable content. Eventually, people just want to get it done fast, optional stuff be damned.

[NekoMataMata]

Wouldn't really matter what they put there. Sooner or later, people would just ignore it to get the content over with. Dungeon gear isn't incentive enough, because it doesn't last long enough to be worth the effort; minions, mounts, and other collectibles are one-and-done, so nobody cares to keep going for them again and again (and if they're tradeable, they'd either be some low RNG chance of dropping, or guaranteed drops that won't hold value for long, so it still wouldn't be worth it); experience, gil, tomes, and materia are easily acquired from so many other sources that it'd be pointless; and, as criterion dungeons show, just having more interesting fights isn't enough for people to care if the rewards aren't worthwhile.

It's really just an inherent flaw in daily repeatable content. Eventually, people just want to get it done fast, optional stuff be damned.

That sounds like the solution to me actually. Maybe instead of stuff that's one and done, either give the dungeon random elements on each entry to force people to have to figure things out every time or... add buffs to the optional paths.

The second one could be interesting. Imagine if optional paths in dungeons could give you buffs that could speed up the dungeon somehow. It would actually be worth it and you'd have a decision to make each dungeon. Do you just go through it in the most straight forward braindead way or do you try your best to clear as fast as possible.

[Striker44]

But then you could say that it's SE's fault for not putting anything interesting in the optional paths that motivates people to deviate.

Except they've already done that, and we've responded in the same way. Extra gear in Haukke Manor from using additional keys to open more rooms. Upgraded drops in the second part of Cutter's Cry from killing all the mobs in a room before opening the chests. None of it mattered. (Heck, in that second part of Cutter's Cry, groups used to kill one pack and move on...now we don't even bother doing that and just run straight to the portals to the next rooms.) Simply put, it's likely impossible to find something "suitably" rewarding that the playerbase in general will spend that extra time. It's not SE's fault. At all.

[Shurrikhan]

Actually, try going back and reading old WoW dev interviews. Players preferring only the most optimal path through a dungeon is exactly why they stopped creating the Sunken Temples, Maraudons and Blackrock Depths.

They stopped creating multi-path dungeons? Is that why 75% of dungeons even in this latest expansion are... multi-path dungeons?

(Heck, in that second part of Cutter's Cry, groups used to kill one pack and move on...now we don't even bother doing that and just run straight to the portals to the next rooms.)

Probably because they removed all experience gains from killing dungeon mobs, further skewing reward per minute away from side-paths, since those mobs aren't required to reach the next boss (the only things that give exp in dungeons now)?

Simply put, it's likely impossible to find something "suitably" rewarding that the playerbase in general will spend that extra time. It's not SE's fault. At all.

And our proof of this is... rewards that were painfully lackluster in their own time, do not scale (unlike tomes or experience), and are gated by mobs with uniquely zero reward directly or indirectly?

[Striker44]

And our proof of this is... rewards that were painfully lackluster in their own time, do not scale (unlike tomes or experience), and are gated by mobs with uniquely zero reward directly or indirectly?

And your suggestion in its place was? Oh, right, nothing, because you realize my point still 100% stands that it is likely impossible to find something in a dungeon reward that would have staying power in encouraging people to explore non-linear paths. Dungeon gear is actually quite good for someone leveling, by the way, and even moreso back in the ARR days when leveling was slower. It still didn't stop us (the playerbase) from ignoring it and just making dungeons linear.

[Shinkuno]

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

Hell no, just because players like to minmax you dont start design are boring game. WoW players are one of the most min-maxing crowed amongst MMO players at least and Blizzard didnt stop designing open dungeons just because some players map out the fastest path. Stop excusing their lazy design with "but its the players fault!"