Rotations: Making them DIFFERENT

[vetch]

That's fine, but the point still stands, pre-EW SMN was not like any Summoner in any other FF game. Point out a single other FF game where the Summoner character has a permanent minor-elemental pet.

Why? I don't care about pet or not pet. I care about versatile versus not. With pet it was more versatile, but not because of the pet. They can design the job where the versatility and support options come from the summons, and I have been saying they should.

SMN has Resurrection, Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Rekindle, and (lol) Physic. Is your argument that SMN's non-damage party utility isn't oGCD? Searing Light is oGCD just like Embolden and the others.

Yes. Direct DPS increase buffs are not the kind of 'versatility' I'm looking for in my versatile caster. Almost every DPS job has those and I don't care about them. There's a reason I haven't been mentioning Searing Light, or Brotherhood, or Mage's/Army's/Wanderer's, or Mug, or Battle Litany, or-.

But now that you mention it, why is it a twinklebeam cast from the summoner himself instead of a summoned Doomtrain inflicting a 'VIT 0' status on the enemies or something like that? Or I guess in the context of FF14 primals, it could be Sri Lakshmi enthralling them to lower their defenses. More missed flavor opportunities.

I feel like you really liked old SMN and really dislike new SMN, so you aren't looking at things objectively, but I'm not sure, but SMN has plenty of non-damage utility that's not part of its rotation - as you note "The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking"; if true, you have to consider Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Resurrection, Rekindle, Radiant Aegis, and even Physic as part of its "entire kit".

'Objectivity' is a spook haunting your mind. I don't need to be objective when I'm arguing for my preferences.

I didn't really like old SMN, the rotation didn't mesh with my brain, but I did like its versatility. I liked that it played differently in dungeons, and FATEs, and raids. And I freely admit to being partial to the Summons in the other Final Fantasy games where they offer more support options. I've... kind of been saying that over and over?

Anyway I already talked about how disappointing and false-to-theme Radiant Aegis and Phoenix's skills are and don't feel the need to recite the argument again when you can just re-read the other comment. Physick is cute and silly, I've certainly spammed it during downtime for lolz, but it's not a summon, is it? If they upgraded Physick to 'Kirin' at level 30 and it summoned a mystical beast to cast a weak regen on someone, well, now we're talking.

You specifically limit it to "on-demand support oGCDs" to justify your position that is otherwise wrong. Moreover, those other things are hardly "on-demand". Use Mantra. Now 20 seconds later, use it again. What's that? You can't because it has a 2 min CD? That's not very "on-demand", is it? It's very limited. SMN's Resurrection can be cast at any time, making it already more on-demand at rasing support.

lol. lmao.

I do think Carbuncle is a complete waste of space/lost opportunity now, though. That I agree with. I'd like to see Radiant Aegis castable on other people and Carby to be given a (SCH) Ruin 2 spell, something it can just pelt the enemy with that are instant casts so they don't block clutch Aegis casts. I'd also like to see Carby stick around when you summon other things rather than be a vessel for them.

Right? Like, pick a lane. Either we have an emotional support squirrel for hanging out in Ligma Lominsa with, or we have a combat pet. Him fricking off half the time so we can't even use his one ability when we need it is just annoying.

Asking around the internet, it seems a lot of people don't think "job flavor is so lacking" on EW SMN. The fact you're having to argue the point that people feel like it finally captures the feeling of a Summoner indicates that your position is not universal. Clearly people are seeing something you aren't.

Argumentum ad populum.

[Renathras]

...

Not quite sure what you mean by "unalloyed"?

As I said, FFXIV's SMN feels like a hybrid of Rydia from FF4 and Clive from FF16.

Also, your picture is pretty misleading. Not only does it leave out a huge part of 5.X (and earlier) SMN (the DoTs; not to mention Egi-Assaults and Further Ruins), it ignores that Phoenix and Bahamut are also in the 6.X rotation. I get it's supposed to be a meme, but it's an example of what I'm saying.

Why do those people who may have invested a fair amount of time into their summoner believe in some "ideology" whereas those that like the current summoner do not? Similarly why are those that liked the former summoner become incapable of discussing the changes and what is "reality"? Who defines "reality"?

You've made multiple arguments to justify keeping one healer the way it is, expressly because of those healers who don't want that job changed, however in this case summoners who didn't like a complete overhaul are disgruntled?

Not at all.

It may have gone without you noticing, since I haven't explicitly said so here, but in almost every SMN conversation I get into, my consistent position is "Current SMN feels more like a Final Fantasy Summoner, but I wish they'd have kept the old SMN or ported the non-Summon parts of the kit (DoTs, Further Ruin, and arguably Trance) into a new Job (Green Mage, probably) or alternatively, made this new SMN as Evoker or something so that the people who enjoyed that kind of gameplay could still have it." I've been entirely consistent in this belief, and it crosses both my Healer argument and my SMN one (and PLD as well, in case you were curious).

What I mean by ideology or disgruntled is that people absolutely are.

Some people loved old SMN - and I get that; it's why I advocate for readding it to the game in some form since we're passed the point of "don't change it" at this point in time - but the problem is this makes them biased against the new one unfairly. New SMN isn't a bad Job. Had it been introduced as a separate/new Job (say, Evoker), the complaints would be unfounded, just as they are now. This is the problem with changing Jobs rather than adding new ones. When a Job is changed, there will be people who permanently hate it, no matter how good it is, because it robbed them of something they had before. Does that make sense?

That is, some criticisms may be valid, but some are not, and are due to people being jaded by the loss of the old SMN they liked, not by the new SMN being bad.

New SMN is a good Job in a lot of ways, and it more closely matches the feel of traditional FF Summoners. This seems to be a very common view, so can't be attributed to just a few people lying to themselves or whatnot. It's also been argued in objective terms using various iterations of Summoner to show the similarities, so it's not just a "feelings/subjective" or "trust me bro" position to hold. And it's common enough that it can't merely be discarded as the delusions or misunderstanding of a few random people.

I think it's fair to point out that some people's criticisms are not based in objectivity but rather in annoyance at what they lost, if that makes sense. When people say, for example "you're just hitting the same two buttons" or "all of them feel the same", those are likely examples of this, since (a) you hit more than two buttons (that claim is objectively false) and (b) they feel different, just as RDM's do (which is subjectively true; but considering these people are NOT badmouthing RDM's buttons as "feeling the same", the point holds.)

Me personally, I would have added Evoker as another Job (a third branching form Arcanist, I guess?), or alternatively, taken old SMN's kit wholesale, removed the Egis, replaced Egi-Assault with something poison/disease themed, done the same with Bahamut and Phoenix (that is, remove the Summons from the old one and make them a magic Inner Release type of thing), and then introduce new SMN alongside that. That way, we'd have an actual Summoner (the one we have now) and an actual DoT mage. The names don't even matter to me, honestly, hence why I'd have been fine with Evoker.

But old SMN wasn't a Summoner in any normal sense. People saying that really are lying to themselves, which I can only guess comes from that frustration with old SMN having been removed.

Carby currently just serves as a nuisance to make SMN's utility shield a bit less practical to use.

I don't mind it existing, but either put something for it to do or just make it optional. I'd love to have it out hanging on cities still, but not in combat.

Agreed. It's why I think it should at least be doing some chip damage just so it's doing SOMETHING.

Why?

Uh...what?

Your prior post and argument was that new SMN isn't like Final Fantasy Summoners are and that the old one was more like them. So I ask you to point out any old FF game Summoner that's like pre-EW SMN to prove the argument you're making.

"Why?"

To prove the claim you're literally making?

What kind of question is that?

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It was no more versatile before than it is now. Sure, they CAN design a Job where it has versatility and support from Summons...but old SMN didn't have that, so you can't say that it did. If you do, you'd be lying. You haven't been saying it should, you've been saying it did. I'm pointing out it did not. Indeed, it was arguably less versatile before since you had to swap Egis for AOE vs single target vs loltanking (once pets couldn't be targeted anymore), where new SMN can do the AOE/single target (and loltanking) without having to swap out anything at all.

.

"Direct DPS increase buffs are not the kind of 'versatility' I'm looking for in my versatile caster."

And? Old SMN didn't have this vaunted versatility you're talking about, either.

My point is, you can't use this as an attack on new SMN to justify your position that old SMN was better when old SMN was no better. You can talk about Vit 0 Doomtrain - did old SMN have Vit 0 Doomtrain? No. No it did not. So it's irrelevant to the comparison/discussion between the two.

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You don't have to be objective to argue for preference, that's true.

But if you're arguing new SMN is bad and old SMN was good, you should be able to justify that with at least some objective points, and when someone calls you on your lack of supporting evidence or holes in your arguments, you shouldn't act high and mighty with a "Why?" or the like.

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"lol. lmao."

Riveting.

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"Right? Like, pick a lone."

Something we agree on, at least.

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"Argumentum ad populum."

Pointing out that many people think a thing is true as evidence you writing them off is silly, as part of a larger argument where, unlike you, I actually DO point out past and present Final Fantasy games with a similar take on SMN to FFXIVs, is not an argummentum ad populum.

Moreover, it's better than what you're doing.

I'm not saying "it's popular therefore it's good" (which is the fallacy you reference). I'm saying "a lot of people do see it this way, so suggesting it's some one-off thing only a few people or the misguided do is probably not accurate".

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"but I did like it's versatility"

WHAT versatility??

It has single and AOE attacks, just like new SMN does. It had a party buff, the same one new SMN does. It had a combat raise, which new SMN has the exact same one of as well. It had instant casts for movement and new SMN has even more. It had Everlasting Flight at a set point in its rotation (not as an "on-demand" oGCD) and new SMN has the same thing (AND Enkindle on top of that).

This is why I speak of objectivity - saying old SMN had versatility (and that new SMN does not) is an objective statement. And it's objectively false; new SMN has (slightly) more versatility than old SMN did. "playing different in dungeons/FATEs/raids" is not the definition of "versatility" (definitions are also somewhat objective, otherwise words have no meaning).

Aegis and Phoenix's skills were there in pre-EW SMN as well. And nearly identical. How are they bad now but were good then, exactly?

All the versatility it had before it has now in the new form. New SMN even has a little more. Maybe you mean some concept other than versatile and are using the wrong word, I don't know. So I need to see your examples to see what it is you're talking about. Because based on the objective definition of the word versatile, new SMN is more versatile (slightly; but not less) than old SMN was.

How, SPECIFICALLY, was it "versatile" before that it isn't now?

Barely lukewarm take:

SMN will never be well represented in this game.

The 4 man light party concept just doesn't offer room for truely versatile flex/support jobs even if SE did have a change of heart about their hateboner for anything that doesn't boil down to generating, enhancing or allowing more damage.

Meanwhile, the job design team aren't innovative or brave enough to make it into an interesting DPS job either.

Largely this.

Unless they make a full on Support role (which is unlikely), or SERIOUSLY redesign their encounter and combat design system (not as, but just about as, unlikely), a DPS Job that can also competently heal, debuff, buff, damage, and so on as major parts of its gameplay and decision tree is unlikely.

The few cases that can do this mostly do it as a one-off oGCDs used on CD (things like damage boosts), or healing abilities that are already threatening to make Healers as a role obsolete (Curing Waltz and stuff like that; even Mantra can be used to boost the effectiveness of things like that, so it also contributes to this problem of 1/0 Healer clears and will until such time as it only affects healing spells). That is, things that are bad.

The only exceptions to that rule are Clemency and Vercure, since they're actually GCDs and actual trade-offs that can't be sustained indefinitely if overused.

There won't be a Job in FFXIV (*monkey paw spasms wildly*) that has a truly support role while also being DPS where it can do things like debuff enemies (anything other than the standard Addle/Reprisal or the rare Dismantle, anyway), do tons of healing, allow shields and buffs and support options, etc. Just doesn't work with FFXIV's rigid combat system.

And even IF Summoner had them - you'd be "bad" for using them in normal combat. Look at PvP Bahamut vs Phoenix. Suppose you had that choice in PvE. "Higher damage Bahamut or lower damage Phoenix that also has a heal". When people use Phoenix, they'd be ridiculed just like Clemency spamming PLDs are and told to stop doing that. Bahamut would always be the right choice UNLESS you're trying a 1/0 Healer run or some niche cases of prog that would be subbed for Bahamut as soon as the party was geared enough not to need it.

It would help with 0 Healer runs. A lot. But...that's a bad thing, not a good thing.

[vetch]

Your prior post and argument was that new SMN isn't like Final Fantasy Summoners are and that the old one was more like them.

That's close to it, but no. My prior argument is that I believe people are saying new SMN feels like a FF summoner based on visuals, which feels facile and incorrect to me.

I didn't care for the DoTs, but I liked commanding my summons to hit things, which made up for it. Being filled with ruby arcanum juice so I can use [Renamed Ruin III] twice and a gapcloser (???) for some reason, doesn't. I don't want to weave in and out of melee combat when I load up SMN. I would have loaded RDM if that's what I wanted.

Old felt more summoner-y to me because it was more like 'o magical beast, hearken to my will and punch that guy while I stand over here in safety'. Remember, I consider Old a 'small, scuffed mirror' of what I feel a FF Summoner is, not a faithful representation.

I also go on to attack SMN's thematic tie-ins themselves as lacking across both iterations, but just in case, you should not take that as me rescinding my personal opinion on the underlying mechanics of old vs. new. Rather you should treat it as a secondary assertion that people are prepared to accept too little from these developers.

You can talk about Vit 0 Doomtrain - did old SMN have Vit 0 Doomtrain? No. No it did not. So it's irrelevant to the comparison/discussion between the two.

Like that. That was not a point made in support of old SMN's versatility, it was an observation about how the job's job flavor is weaker than it could be. Am I a summoner, or am I a vanilla buff-flinger?

Indeed, it was arguably less versatile before since you had to swap Egis for AOE vs single target vs loltanking (once pets couldn't be targeted anymore), where new SMN can do the AOE/single target (and loltanking) without having to swap out anything at all.

This ties into a tangent, actually, which has been on my mind off-and-on since I started playing. First, I'll reiterate the relevant point: being able to swap between the summons was more versatile than being required to cast them all.

Let me explain in more depth with an example.

Do you ever do old content, like Garuda EX, or Mog EX, or T7, or A1S, and your DNC or MCH or WHM clips one of the adds that you absolutely must not clip and wipes the raid, because an oGCD AoE is part of their normal raid rotation? The solution in those cases is learning to hold that cast until it's safe.

New SMN can't do that. It's so packed with obligate AoEs, at so many fixed intervals, at every levelcap, that it literally constrains fight design just by existing. Even in ARR you lose a bunch of DPS doing it and it feels absolutely awful. Old SMN, though? It could do it in ARR/HW levelcaps with the kind of clever shuffling you've extolled in new SMN. Spend both Ifrit-Assault 2s and Enkindle first, let them recharge while the add is active, lose 0 DPS. At higher levels, it would lose some DPS and some gameplay feel to delaying skills, but nothing on the order of what new SMN experiences.

Now, this is heavily reflective of my biases because it's formed by my experience in ARR/HW content, but that's my favorite content in the game, so tough cookies, I suppose. But if you only ever want your bosses to cast DDR patterns on the floor and for any adds to die on sight, sure, new SMN works fine.

If you ever want to design a new fight featuring anything more technical and clever to do with adds, though? Old SMN would have been pressed but could have done it, possibly with a little bit of DPS loss depending on the levelcap. New SMN lacks the versatility to handle it at every levelcap without losing massive DPS. I would not run 6.0 SMN in T7S, or any hypothetical future fight with tight add control requirements, under any circumstances short of someone offering to pay me real money.

You could say that with the amount of obligate AoEs in the game now, on multiple jobs, that it seems like they have no intention of doing anything clever with adds, ever again, but if so, why waste precious button slots splitting Shoha from Shoha 2 and Edge of Darkness from Flood of Darkness? I'm not sure that it's a foregone conclusion.

Also please note that they recently changed fights at lower levels as part of the dungeon revamps and actually removed a couple fun fights like this (old Snowcloak Yeti and Keeper of the Lake Einhander), so this isn't just a matter of cool ideas being stillborn at max level. We don't know what revamps will come to low-level content in the future, but if they're all DDR-patterning striking dummies, I will be... vexed.

And note again, before we disembark from this tangent, that this is only one facet of what I would consider 'versatility', but one which old SMN very appreciably has over new SMN: it can choose not to cast an AoE without being reduced to a one-button joke job.

[Eorzean_username]

You could say that with the amount of obligate AoEs in the game now, on multiple jobs, that it seems like they have no intention of doing anything clever with adds, ever again, but if so, why waste precious button slots splitting Shoha from Shoha 2 and Edge of Darkness from Flood of Darkness? I'm not sure that it's a foregone conclusion.

Just to quickly comment on this one thing:

Sadly, Yoshida already covered this in a Live Letter or pre-expansion interview or something. Searching for a specific Yoshida interview / stream is always an exercise in information-seeking torture, but to paraphrase from memory, it was something like:

"We noticed that a lot of times players in Dungeons weren't using their AOEs very much. So we thought, what if we give everyone more AOEs, and make it more obvious that you're supposed to use them? And so that's why we decided to expand on AOE skills so much, so players could have more fun in content like that."

That's extremely heavily-paraphrased (please don't consider it a citable source), but that was the basic vibe: the AOE bloat since ShB has been implemented specifically with "having fun" in Dungeons / trash pulls as the design intent.

[Renathras]

That's close to it, but no. My prior argument is that I believe people are saying new SMN feels like a FF summoner based on visuals, which feels facile and incorrect to me.

Ah, I see.

I think the disconnect is you're fundamentally misunderstanding the argument, then.

To me, what makes a Summoner in Final Fantasy is GENERALLY that you use these big spells to unleash a big blast of damage via a summoned creature, with some iterations (namely more recent ones) having the Summoner and Summon occasionally fighting side by side for a time. FF12 and I think FF11 did the side by side thing, FF10 did the thing like having Bahamut or Phoenix on the field (though in that case you directed their actions, but this is probably the closest FFXIV can get to that), FF16 has the "you take on the powers of the Summon" element (the Gemshine and Astral Flow abilities VERY MUCH to me seem like a proto-very caster oriented-version of FF16's gameplay), and there's also the big blasts of damage like FF15, FFTactics, FF9, FF8, FF7, and FF6 between the initial Primal hits and Deathflare/Akh Morn/Revelation from Enkindle and Bahamut's Astral Flow.

I think the problem is you assume that people talking about this are all shallow. They're probably thinking about it on a deeper level than you give them credit, and so it's causing you to misunderstand their argument and thus reach the wrong conclusion.

This is a common thing from people who don't like new SMN to assume everyone who does is shallow/lazy/doesn't care about combat/etc.

Maybe if people did that less, they'd see why there's a disconnect between them and others, as I think that's where your disconnect lies. [Semi, as you can see above, is a particularly bad offender in this category of action.]

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Couple other points:

1) Agree that fight design is an issue. I've said so many many times, so you're preaching to a choir in agreement with me here.

2) I would like to hear some of these other facets of what you would consider versatility.

3) The AOE thing I think I see what you mean, you mean the initial Summon hits. I'm trying to think of any cases where that's an issue now, since Tanks have to pull the adds apart in most fights where you're supposed to focus them, and the only fight that springs right to mind where hitting an add is bad is Pharos Sirius with the bird boss that has the eggs and enrage mechanic. But the Summon AOE's are small enough to not hit those, generally? This also seems to be more a reflection of modern fight design. You point out Shoha 2 and Edge vs Flood, but I can also point out all of RDM's formerly single-target big attacks are now AOE as well. So any fight designed with adds everywhere that you can't hit, RDM couldn't use Holy/Flare/Scorch/Resolution or Contre Sixte. PLD's burst includes mandatory AOE Swords, WAR's Primal Rend, GNB's Double Down and Bow Shock, etc etc.

Honestly, they seem to do this randomly from Job to Job, like RDM and SMN have automatic AOE, but BLM doesn't. I have no idea the logic behind those choices, but it doesn't seem isolated to SMN.

But yes, I'd like to hear the other forms of versatility. Surely it's not just the one?

[fulminating]

Not quite sure what you mean by "unalloyed"?

As I said, FFXIV's SMN feels like a hybrid of Rydia from FF4 and Clive from FF16.

Also, your picture is pretty misleading. Not only does it leave out a huge part of 5.X (and earlier) SMN (the DoTs; not to mention Egi-Assaults and Further Ruins), it ignores that Phoenix and Bahamut are also in the 6.X rotation. I get it's supposed to be a meme, but it's an example of what I'm saying.

Unalloyed as in not a hybrid. Rydia isn’t a summoner alone, but has black magic too, fairly sure ffxi jobs all take a secondary job, other summoners are also white mages, I think ffv was the one where you also have a mix of your choice, similar to ffta/2. It’s been a while since 1990,

That would be because it’s the phases. You’re pressing 3 until it’s ctrl 3 time repeatedly. I think it probably should be a picture of gem shine into ruin 3 but I couldn’t find a better one at short notice. They do not feel nearly as distinct as they did, whether or not this is a 2 minute issue isn’t really relevant, we can only compare what is there. For the record I don’t think it helps, and should they change it they’ll have a hell of a time changing it. It also suffers from the riveting gameplay of casting ruin 3 lots while waiting on the phoenix buff because high concept 2 always comes along at the same time and there’s no flexibility in how you play it and prematurely bahamuting would be a hilarious dps loss comparatively. Builder spender that operates from debt sounds a lot more interesting than the reality.

Honestly if they added current summoner as evoker I’d still be pretty annoyed about it. Even if there’s a collection of rabbits who literally just taught the beastmen how to summon properly and learning a job from them would have been a good way to expand on the world building and integrate it into the story. There’s just isn’t enough to it nor anything to justify its rigidity.

[ForsakenRoe]

It also suffers from the riveting gameplay of casting ruin 3 lots while waiting on the phoenix buff because high concept 2 always comes along at the same time and there’s no flexibility in how you play it and prematurely bahamuting would be a hilarious dps loss comparatively. Builder spender that operates from debt sounds a lot more interesting than the reality.

'We need to delay buffs by 25s because of this mechanic being trash to try and get damage out in (eg pinax), we don't lose a use of the buffs'

Old SMN: Okay I can hold Bahamut and Searing Light for 25s, filling the gap with one extra Egi Assault 1 and 2 to not overcap, the 2 Ruin IV procs, and then the Ruin III's I'd be casting with Bahamut out anyway

New SMN: My whole rotation falls apart because of this, and I am forced to spam my weakest spell for 25 seconds unless I want to misalign from raidbuffs (which is a bigger DPS loss)

I think this is what people mean by 'Old SMN was more versatile' maybe?

[Renathras]

Unalloyed as in not a hybrid.

Ah, I see. There...seem not to be man/any of those.

Given, by that token, there aren't very many non-hybrid Jobs in general. Taking FF9 for example, Zidane is a Thief but also a Squire/Fighter, Steiner is a Knight but also a Paladin but also a Mystic Knight (with Vivi in the party), Vivi seems to be the only pure Job in the bunch (other than Quina?) as BLM, Garnet is a SMN/WHM, Freya is a DRG/RDM (or maybe DNC is more accurate...) hybrid, Eiko is a WHM/SMN, Quina is a BLU, and Amaranth is never in the party. (Seems to be a MNK/Fighter). FF6, FF7, and FF8 characters can all be customized, so are generally some version of Fighter/Archer + Mage + Summoner. FFX characters kind of fit into that same camp, except without the Summoner (aside from Yuna). FF12 and FF13's characters are also hybrids. FF15s are also hybrids but in kind of a different way, and no mages. Prompto is probably the least hybrid as a MCH, I guess (when not going 3PS shooter). And FF16's main character is a Fighter + Summoner + debateably Red Mage...you know what, let's just call him a Red Caller and be done with it.

So I don't really think this is exclusively a SMN problem in that sense. You could probably make that argument related to all FFXIV Jobs.

It also suffers from the riveting gameplay of casting ruin 3 lots while waiting on...

I made a proposal a little while back in the DPS forum that was mixed reception but some people seemed to like it as a possible solution to this problem: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...tweak-proposal

Would basically address this very problem.

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As for the AOE vs Single Target thing; they could just make two versions of each Primal for that. But then people would ask why the single target existed when they do the same damage. People already ask this all the time now. AOE gameplay in this game is more or less an afterthought at this point, I think. Agree? It certainly seems to be. Most content is either adds you bunch up (if possible; Extreme adds often seem to be static emplacements you simply have to destroy - ZodEx, HydEx, and RubiEx all did this, and the others didn't have adds) and then nuke down without thought all together; and the rest of the content is single target where it doesn't matter if abilities have an AOE effect because it's irrelevant.