Rotations: Making them DIFFERENT

[ForsakenRoe]

Why is the job flavor so lacking on the job that 'finally feels like a Final Fantasy summoner'? Is all the praise because people were getting nothing for so long and now they're getting crumbs instead?

I think it'd be a lot cooler if using the summons gave us an aspect of that summon. Like instead of Ifrit's 'slam the ground with a book' it summons Ifrit's claws to swipe at the enemy. Garuda's instantcasts being explained with 'you have her wings for those 4 GCDS', using Titan's fists to upheave the earth for his moves, etc. Like the summon comes out, does it's ultimate/LB/whatever, then you absorb it into your body to take part of it's physiology for the duration of the phase

[fulminating]

And maybe they could let you have ravana's wings while you use a stacking supranakah, or ramuh's staff while you cast a high power single target attack with splash, or brute justice's wings while you use your gap closer.

Here, have some "concept art" of what it may look like:

Do note the way that the stance/body language of leviathan, ifrit and garuda are mimicked in the lower right trio rather than growing scales/rabbit horns/wings.

The issue I have with this, is that in mimicking a fraction of BLU's power all you do is lose what a summoner was.

To go back to the healer rotations, I think there must be a different effect on the spells for it to feel significantly different, way more than summoner currently has - even with the ogcds, titan shine, garuda shine and even ifrit shite still just comes across as pressing the same button. Bio and miasma despite not having much feedback did seem slightly more because they're separate buttons pressed close to each other with different cast times and miasma has a heavy effect. I'm not sure where exactly the threshold of "sameyness" is, but summoner's definitely sailed past it.

[Renathras]

The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking.

That's fine, but the point still stands, pre-EW SMN was not like any Summoner in any other FF game. Point out a single other FF game where the Summoner character has a permanent minor-elemental pet.

It wasn't "versatile across the entire game". In ShB, Titan's tanking went away making it useless except for the shield and a slight bit better survivability on prog for the SMN player. It was essentially always Ifrit for single target and Garuda for AOE. There's nothing "versatile" about that. You were either doing it right or you were doing it wrong, and Garuda was, for all intents and purposes, Ifrit's AOE ability set. That's like saying new SMN is versatile across the entire game because it has both Ruin AND Outburst/Tri-Disaster.

MNK has Mantra. BRD has Warden/Minne and <insert Job name for Role ability> damage reduction. RDM has Verraise, Embolden, Magick Barrier, and Vercure. SMN has Resurrection, Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Rekindle, and (lol) Physic. Is your argument that SMN's non-damage party utility isn't oGCD? Searing Light is oGCD just like Embolden and the others.

I feel like you really liked old SMN and really dislike new SMN, so you aren't looking at things objectively, but I'm not sure, but SMN has plenty of non-damage utility that's not part of its rotation - as you note "The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking"; if true, you have to consider Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Resurrection, Rekindle, Radiant Aegis, and even Physic as part of its "entire kit".

You specifically limit it to "on-demand support oGCDs" to justify your position that is otherwise wrong. Moreover, those other things are hardly "on-demand". Use Mantra. Now 20 seconds later, use it again. What's that? You can't because it has a 2 min CD? That's not very "on-demand", is it? It's very limited. SMN's Resurrection can be cast at any time, making it already more on-demand at rasing support.

And, again, this is not something universal across all FF games, as some have Summoners that do not have too much support. Rydia is a more offensively oriented Black Caller/Summoner (once she returns as an adult), and most of her summons are attack spells with a few exceptions of big summons you have to win in fights, which are akin to EW SMN's Phoenix.

I do think Carbuncle is a complete waste of space/lost opportunity now, though. That I agree with. I'd like to see Radiant Aegis castable on other people and Carby to be given a (SCH) Ruin 2 spell, something it can just pelt the enemy with that are instant casts so they don't block clutch Aegis casts. I'd also like to see Carby stick around when you summon other things rather than be a vessel for them.

Asking around the internet, it seems a lot of people don't think "job flavor is so lacking" on EW SMN. The fact you're having to argue the point that people feel like it finally captures the feeling of a Summoner indicates that your position is not universal. Clearly people are seeing something you aren't.

I think it'd be a lot cooler if using the summons gave us an aspect of that summon. Like instead of Ifrit's 'slam the ground with a book' it summons Ifrit's claws to swipe at the enemy. Garuda's instantcasts being explained with 'you have her wings for those 4 GCDS', using Titan's fists to upheave the earth for his moves, etc. Like the summon comes out, does it's ultimate/LB/whatever, then you absorb it into your body to take part of it's physiology for the duration of the phase

Might be an engine thing. But then there's RPR, so...who knows? Something like FF16's attacks might be interesting in the future. Thing is, SMN is still a Caster, not a Melee. But there should be plenty of options for that. In FF16, Clive basically has an attack (melee) and spam spell (Fire, Aero, etc) in base form. But then there's a bunch of other ARPG stuff on top of that. FFXIV isn't an ARPG, so its Caster SMN won't be that. But it would be neat if the attacks were more like his Fire/Aero/Stone/etc.

Bio and miasma despite not having much feedback did seem slightly more because they're separate buttons pressed close to each other with different cast times and miasma has a heavy effect. I'm not sure where exactly the threshold of "sameyness" is, but summoner's definitely sailed past it.

I'm a bit confused about this. Gemshine for Titan and Garuda feel different (different cadence) and for Ifrit feels very different (long cast time). Astral Flow feels ENTIRELY different from all of those. And Gemshine and Astral flow are two separate buttons with different cast times. Even the different Gemshines have different cast times (Ifrit) and recast times (Garuda), and their Astral Flows also have different cast times, effects, and one is even a gap closer. I'm not sure how those feel the same to people.

Also, didn't they remove Miasma's Heavy a long time before removing the ability? It didn't have the Heavy in SB, did it? I thought it was something about reducing healing effectiveness...which was pretty much meaningless/useless since very few enemies after ARR actually heal each other, and in the rare solo instance there are healers, they're the first enemies I take out.

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I dunno, to me, EW SMN both feels more like a Final Fantasy Summoner than pre-EW SMN ever did, and its abilities also feel distinct and creative. I can very clearly tell when I'm in Garuda vs Titan (the two most similar) based on the 1-2 cadence of Titan vs the much faster 1111 of Garuda and the long cast of Slipstream. Like even those two feel different to me, and Ifrit feels completely different. For all the talk of pressing the same two PHYSICAL BUTTONS, the way you press them is different. It'd be like saying "Verholy and Scorch is just like hitting Verstone and Jolt". Or "Enchanted 1-2-3 melee on RDM feels the same as non-Enchanted 1-2-3". Clearly they do not, and no one's been making that argument despite it being this way (for VerHoly/Flare) since ShB, and for the melee combo since SB. People have always agreed they feel different, despite not taking up separate physical buttons.

I think that argument is overplayed.

.

I really don't mean to disparage anyone, but I feel a lot of people don't like SMN for more ideological (for lack of a better word) reasons (they don't like the game being "dumbed down") and/or people who like DoT gameplay miss old SMN - and in both cases, people then take this pre-existing disgruntlement to argue against SMN and find reasons to justify it. It's like when someone has a poll result they want, so they make poll questions to generate that result rather than reflect reality. It blinds people to seeing things and allows them to justify their position by masking/putting on blinders, as it were.

Again, Enchanted weaponskills on RDM vs non-Enchanted ones. Same buttons, but no one complains they feel the same - because they don't. They feel different because of the different cadence (faster GCD) of using them, and they feel different because they build to something different than just hitting 1-2-3 without being Enchanted, and they feel different because they have a different visual and sound effect.

This is the same deal with SMN.

[fulminating]

That's fine, but the point still stands, pre-EW SMN was not like any Summoner in any other FF game. Point out a single other FF game where the Summoner character has a permanent minor-elemental pet.

Point out a single other ff game where summoner is unalloyed. That'd be ff3, where you spam the highest level summon which is about as close to having a permanent pet as the game can support. Giving each summon an appropriate niche - ifrit for single target, garuda for aoe and titan for defence/2 target? helped reduce the sameyness. Hell, even having 11111111 and 12121212 for bahamut and phoenix respectively helped them feel more dissimilar.

"my friends say endwalker summoner entirely lacks both the established summoner identity of 14 and fails at emulating the traditional summoner so nyeh"


I think the amount I'm hitting the key doesn't help gemshine's case. It doesn't take long for the different speed to stop feeling unique to me, even with the weaves. Garuda puddle I usually swiftcast so that doesn't feel much different either.

I don't know if this helps explain it, especially since it doesn't actually mention the stuff I'm referring to, but with 5.x summoner for example you were building towards something even during downtime - further ruin stacks, dwt changed all ruins to instant cast rather than standing in place, tri disaster resetting with trance too iirc, occasionally moving the pet if need be. 6.x just don't use the aetherflow spender under phoenix and it'll be near enough. It's hollow, and every way I thought they adapted summoner well to the medium has been removed or sanded away to near-meaningless leaving this abortion people praise for reasons I cannot comprehend. They could easily have fixed the phoenix triple weave by moving firebird to stacks and keeping bahamut as "inner release". It's just yet another instance of the devs throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I've listened to other people's views and their explanations or lack thereof of why it's good now™, but all I can see is a cack-handed implementation of a cut down blue mage.

[IDontPetLalas]

"I really don't mean to disparage anyone, but I feel a lot of people don't like SMN for more ideological (for lack of a better word) reasons (they don't like the game being "dumbed down") and/or people who like DoT gameplay miss old SMN - and in both cases, people then take this pre-existing disgruntlement to argue against SMN and find reasons to justify it. It's like when someone has a poll result they want, so they make poll questions to generate that result rather than reflect reality. It blinds people to seeing things and allows them to justify their position by masking/putting on blinders, as it were.
"
Why do those people who may have invested a fair amount of time into their summoner believe in some "ideology" whereas those that like the current summoner do not? Similarly why are those that liked the former summoner become incapable of discussing the changes and what is "reality"? Who defines "reality"?

You've made multiple arguments to justify keeping one healer the way it is, expressly because of those healers who don't want that job changed, however in this case summoners who didn't like a complete overhaul are disgruntled?

Before you classify this as an "attack" - it isn't- I am simply seeing an incongruity in your positions.

[Raikai]

The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking. I liked old SMN because it was the tiniest bit versatile across the entire game, not because it could shuffle a few buttons around to squeeze more uptime during a Savage raid.

MNK is a DPS. It still gets to have Mantra, a traditional FF Monk skill, with a healing-related function similar to its function in other games. BRD is a DPS, but it still gets to have Warden's and Minne and Troub, non-DPS utility songs similar to what traditional FF Bards have. DNC is a DPS, but it gets to have non-DPS support skills (which don't fit its traditional character because they were plundered from BRD, but that's another tangent). None of them are Limited Jobs. Why does SMN, with a legacy of being more support-capable than the also-DPS jobs Monk and Dancer, have fewer on-demand support oGCDs?

And why aren't the ones it has consistently-themed to old FF games? Why does RDM have the party-wide magic barrier while Carbuncle, the recurring Final Fantasy magic defense summon, gives a single-target barrier? Shouldn't that be reversed? Shouldn't Carbuncle be giving party-wide magic resistance and RDMs casting some kind of juicy single-target buff spells? Oh, but you can use Phoenix, one of the most powerful recovery tools in Final Fantasy, to apply a piddly regen and a heal. Not whenever you want, though, only during the pre-approved Phoenix phase for 15 out of every 120 seconds. Doing it whenever you want would just be silly! Boo.

Really, it feels like Carbuncle is only still there now because it's cute and you can make it follow you around town and that will appeal to people who don't play Final Fantasy, but oh, we need to make a head-fake toward it having some kind of function, so uhhhh... make it required for the actual combat summons. Why? What for? It's all so slapdash and lazy and points further toward a preoccupation with visuals.

And on the topic of damage, why does most of its damage GCD time consist of blapping people with a Variety-Pak of Ruin spells instead of, you know, summoning different magical creatures? You say DoTs and a pet don't feel like a Summoner, but a wizard who just shoots bolts from his hands 85% of the time does? Nuh.

Why is the job flavor so lacking on the job that 'finally feels like a Final Fantasy summoner'? Is all the praise because people were getting nothing for so long and now they're getting crumbs instead?

Carby currently just serves as a nuisance to make SMN's utility shield a bit less practical to use.

I don't mind it existing, but either put something for it to do or just make it optional. I'd love to have it out hanging on cities still, but not in combat.

[vetch]

That's fine, but the point still stands, pre-EW SMN was not like any Summoner in any other FF game. Point out a single other FF game where the Summoner character has a permanent minor-elemental pet.

Why? I don't care about pet or not pet. I care about versatile versus not. With pet it was more versatile, but not because of the pet. They can design the job where the versatility and support options come from the summons, and I have been saying they should.

SMN has Resurrection, Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Rekindle, and (lol) Physic. Is your argument that SMN's non-damage party utility isn't oGCD? Searing Light is oGCD just like Embolden and the others.

Yes. Direct DPS increase buffs are not the kind of 'versatility' I'm looking for in my versatile caster. Almost every DPS job has those and I don't care about them. There's a reason I haven't been mentioning Searing Light, or Brotherhood, or Mage's/Army's/Wanderer's, or Mug, or Battle Litany, or-.

But now that you mention it, why is it a twinklebeam cast from the summoner himself instead of a summoned Doomtrain inflicting a 'VIT 0' status on the enemies or something like that? Or I guess in the context of FF14 primals, it could be Sri Lakshmi enthralling them to lower their defenses. More missed flavor opportunities.

I feel like you really liked old SMN and really dislike new SMN, so you aren't looking at things objectively, but I'm not sure, but SMN has plenty of non-damage utility that's not part of its rotation - as you note "The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking"; if true, you have to consider Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Resurrection, Rekindle, Radiant Aegis, and even Physic as part of its "entire kit".

'Objectivity' is a spook haunting your mind. I don't need to be objective when I'm arguing for my preferences.

I didn't really like old SMN, the rotation didn't mesh with my brain, but I did like its versatility. I liked that it played differently in dungeons, and FATEs, and raids. And I freely admit to being partial to the Summons in the other Final Fantasy games where they offer more support options. I've... kind of been saying that over and over?

Anyway I already talked about how disappointing and false-to-theme Radiant Aegis and Phoenix's skills are and don't feel the need to recite the argument again when you can just re-read the other comment. Physick is cute and silly, I've certainly spammed it during downtime for lolz, but it's not a summon, is it? If they upgraded Physick to 'Kirin' at level 30 and it summoned a mystical beast to cast a weak regen on someone, well, now we're talking.

You specifically limit it to "on-demand support oGCDs" to justify your position that is otherwise wrong. Moreover, those other things are hardly "on-demand". Use Mantra. Now 20 seconds later, use it again. What's that? You can't because it has a 2 min CD? That's not very "on-demand", is it? It's very limited. SMN's Resurrection can be cast at any time, making it already more on-demand at rasing support.

lol. lmao.

I do think Carbuncle is a complete waste of space/lost opportunity now, though. That I agree with. I'd like to see Radiant Aegis castable on other people and Carby to be given a (SCH) Ruin 2 spell, something it can just pelt the enemy with that are instant casts so they don't block clutch Aegis casts. I'd also like to see Carby stick around when you summon other things rather than be a vessel for them.

Right? Like, pick a lane. Either we have an emotional support squirrel for hanging out in Ligma Lominsa with, or we have a combat pet. Him fricking off half the time so we can't even use his one ability when we need it is just annoying.

Asking around the internet, it seems a lot of people don't think "job flavor is so lacking" on EW SMN. The fact you're having to argue the point that people feel like it finally captures the feeling of a Summoner indicates that your position is not universal. Clearly people are seeing something you aren't.

Argumentum ad populum.

[Sebazy]

Barely lukewarm take:

SMN will never be well represented in this game.

The 4 man light party concept just doesn't offer room for truely versatile flex/support jobs even if SE did have a change of heart about their hateboner for anything that doesn't boil down to generating, enhancing or allowing more damage.

Meanwhile, the job design team aren't innovative or brave enough to make it into an interesting DPS job either.

[Renathras]

...

Not quite sure what you mean by "unalloyed"?

As I said, FFXIV's SMN feels like a hybrid of Rydia from FF4 and Clive from FF16.

Also, your picture is pretty misleading. Not only does it leave out a huge part of 5.X (and earlier) SMN (the DoTs; not to mention Egi-Assaults and Further Ruins), it ignores that Phoenix and Bahamut are also in the 6.X rotation. I get it's supposed to be a meme, but it's an example of what I'm saying.

Why do those people who may have invested a fair amount of time into their summoner believe in some "ideology" whereas those that like the current summoner do not? Similarly why are those that liked the former summoner become incapable of discussing the changes and what is "reality"? Who defines "reality"?

You've made multiple arguments to justify keeping one healer the way it is, expressly because of those healers who don't want that job changed, however in this case summoners who didn't like a complete overhaul are disgruntled?

Not at all.

It may have gone without you noticing, since I haven't explicitly said so here, but in almost every SMN conversation I get into, my consistent position is "Current SMN feels more like a Final Fantasy Summoner, but I wish they'd have kept the old SMN or ported the non-Summon parts of the kit (DoTs, Further Ruin, and arguably Trance) into a new Job (Green Mage, probably) or alternatively, made this new SMN as Evoker or something so that the people who enjoyed that kind of gameplay could still have it." I've been entirely consistent in this belief, and it crosses both my Healer argument and my SMN one (and PLD as well, in case you were curious).

What I mean by ideology or disgruntled is that people absolutely are.

Some people loved old SMN - and I get that; it's why I advocate for readding it to the game in some form since we're passed the point of "don't change it" at this point in time - but the problem is this makes them biased against the new one unfairly. New SMN isn't a bad Job. Had it been introduced as a separate/new Job (say, Evoker), the complaints would be unfounded, just as they are now. This is the problem with changing Jobs rather than adding new ones. When a Job is changed, there will be people who permanently hate it, no matter how good it is, because it robbed them of something they had before. Does that make sense?

That is, some criticisms may be valid, but some are not, and are due to people being jaded by the loss of the old SMN they liked, not by the new SMN being bad.

New SMN is a good Job in a lot of ways, and it more closely matches the feel of traditional FF Summoners. This seems to be a very common view, so can't be attributed to just a few people lying to themselves or whatnot. It's also been argued in objective terms using various iterations of Summoner to show the similarities, so it's not just a "feelings/subjective" or "trust me bro" position to hold. And it's common enough that it can't merely be discarded as the delusions or misunderstanding of a few random people.

I think it's fair to point out that some people's criticisms are not based in objectivity but rather in annoyance at what they lost, if that makes sense. When people say, for example "you're just hitting the same two buttons" or "all of them feel the same", those are likely examples of this, since (a) you hit more than two buttons (that claim is objectively false) and (b) they feel different, just as RDM's do (which is subjectively true; but considering these people are NOT badmouthing RDM's buttons as "feeling the same", the point holds.)

Me personally, I would have added Evoker as another Job (a third branching form Arcanist, I guess?), or alternatively, taken old SMN's kit wholesale, removed the Egis, replaced Egi-Assault with something poison/disease themed, done the same with Bahamut and Phoenix (that is, remove the Summons from the old one and make them a magic Inner Release type of thing), and then introduce new SMN alongside that. That way, we'd have an actual Summoner (the one we have now) and an actual DoT mage. The names don't even matter to me, honestly, hence why I'd have been fine with Evoker.

But old SMN wasn't a Summoner in any normal sense. People saying that really are lying to themselves, which I can only guess comes from that frustration with old SMN having been removed.

Carby currently just serves as a nuisance to make SMN's utility shield a bit less practical to use.

I don't mind it existing, but either put something for it to do or just make it optional. I'd love to have it out hanging on cities still, but not in combat.

Agreed. It's why I think it should at least be doing some chip damage just so it's doing SOMETHING.

Why?

Uh...what?

Your prior post and argument was that new SMN isn't like Final Fantasy Summoners are and that the old one was more like them. So I ask you to point out any old FF game Summoner that's like pre-EW SMN to prove the argument you're making.

"Why?"

To prove the claim you're literally making?

What kind of question is that?

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It was no more versatile before than it is now. Sure, they CAN design a Job where it has versatility and support from Summons...but old SMN didn't have that, so you can't say that it did. If you do, you'd be lying. You haven't been saying it should, you've been saying it did. I'm pointing out it did not. Indeed, it was arguably less versatile before since you had to swap Egis for AOE vs single target vs loltanking (once pets couldn't be targeted anymore), where new SMN can do the AOE/single target (and loltanking) without having to swap out anything at all.

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"Direct DPS increase buffs are not the kind of 'versatility' I'm looking for in my versatile caster."

And? Old SMN didn't have this vaunted versatility you're talking about, either.

My point is, you can't use this as an attack on new SMN to justify your position that old SMN was better when old SMN was no better. You can talk about Vit 0 Doomtrain - did old SMN have Vit 0 Doomtrain? No. No it did not. So it's irrelevant to the comparison/discussion between the two.

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You don't have to be objective to argue for preference, that's true.

But if you're arguing new SMN is bad and old SMN was good, you should be able to justify that with at least some objective points, and when someone calls you on your lack of supporting evidence or holes in your arguments, you shouldn't act high and mighty with a "Why?" or the like.

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"lol. lmao."

Riveting.

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"Right? Like, pick a lone."

Something we agree on, at least.

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"Argumentum ad populum."

Pointing out that many people think a thing is true as evidence you writing them off is silly, as part of a larger argument where, unlike you, I actually DO point out past and present Final Fantasy games with a similar take on SMN to FFXIVs, is not an argummentum ad populum.

Moreover, it's better than what you're doing.

I'm not saying "it's popular therefore it's good" (which is the fallacy you reference). I'm saying "a lot of people do see it this way, so suggesting it's some one-off thing only a few people or the misguided do is probably not accurate".

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"but I did like it's versatility"

WHAT versatility??

It has single and AOE attacks, just like new SMN does. It had a party buff, the same one new SMN does. It had a combat raise, which new SMN has the exact same one of as well. It had instant casts for movement and new SMN has even more. It had Everlasting Flight at a set point in its rotation (not as an "on-demand" oGCD) and new SMN has the same thing (AND Enkindle on top of that).

This is why I speak of objectivity - saying old SMN had versatility (and that new SMN does not) is an objective statement. And it's objectively false; new SMN has (slightly) more versatility than old SMN did. "playing different in dungeons/FATEs/raids" is not the definition of "versatility" (definitions are also somewhat objective, otherwise words have no meaning).

Aegis and Phoenix's skills were there in pre-EW SMN as well. And nearly identical. How are they bad now but were good then, exactly?

All the versatility it had before it has now in the new form. New SMN even has a little more. Maybe you mean some concept other than versatile and are using the wrong word, I don't know. So I need to see your examples to see what it is you're talking about. Because based on the objective definition of the word versatile, new SMN is more versatile (slightly; but not less) than old SMN was.

How, SPECIFICALLY, was it "versatile" before that it isn't now?

Barely lukewarm take:

SMN will never be well represented in this game.

The 4 man light party concept just doesn't offer room for truely versatile flex/support jobs even if SE did have a change of heart about their hateboner for anything that doesn't boil down to generating, enhancing or allowing more damage.

Meanwhile, the job design team aren't innovative or brave enough to make it into an interesting DPS job either.

Largely this.

Unless they make a full on Support role (which is unlikely), or SERIOUSLY redesign their encounter and combat design system (not as, but just about as, unlikely), a DPS Job that can also competently heal, debuff, buff, damage, and so on as major parts of its gameplay and decision tree is unlikely.

The few cases that can do this mostly do it as a one-off oGCDs used on CD (things like damage boosts), or healing abilities that are already threatening to make Healers as a role obsolete (Curing Waltz and stuff like that; even Mantra can be used to boost the effectiveness of things like that, so it also contributes to this problem of 1/0 Healer clears and will until such time as it only affects healing spells). That is, things that are bad.

The only exceptions to that rule are Clemency and Vercure, since they're actually GCDs and actual trade-offs that can't be sustained indefinitely if overused.

There won't be a Job in FFXIV (*monkey paw spasms wildly*) that has a truly support role while also being DPS where it can do things like debuff enemies (anything other than the standard Addle/Reprisal or the rare Dismantle, anyway), do tons of healing, allow shields and buffs and support options, etc. Just doesn't work with FFXIV's rigid combat system.

And even IF Summoner had them - you'd be "bad" for using them in normal combat. Look at PvP Bahamut vs Phoenix. Suppose you had that choice in PvE. "Higher damage Bahamut or lower damage Phoenix that also has a heal". When people use Phoenix, they'd be ridiculed just like Clemency spamming PLDs are and told to stop doing that. Bahamut would always be the right choice UNLESS you're trying a 1/0 Healer run or some niche cases of prog that would be subbed for Bahamut as soon as the party was geared enough not to need it.

It would help with 0 Healer runs. A lot. But...that's a bad thing, not a good thing.

[vetch]

Your prior post and argument was that new SMN isn't like Final Fantasy Summoners are and that the old one was more like them.

That's close to it, but no. My prior argument is that I believe people are saying new SMN feels like a FF summoner based on visuals, which feels facile and incorrect to me.

I didn't care for the DoTs, but I liked commanding my summons to hit things, which made up for it. Being filled with ruby arcanum juice so I can use [Renamed Ruin III] twice and a gapcloser (???) for some reason, doesn't. I don't want to weave in and out of melee combat when I load up SMN. I would have loaded RDM if that's what I wanted.

Old felt more summoner-y to me because it was more like 'o magical beast, hearken to my will and punch that guy while I stand over here in safety'. Remember, I consider Old a 'small, scuffed mirror' of what I feel a FF Summoner is, not a faithful representation.

I also go on to attack SMN's thematic tie-ins themselves as lacking across both iterations, but just in case, you should not take that as me rescinding my personal opinion on the underlying mechanics of old vs. new. Rather you should treat it as a secondary assertion that people are prepared to accept too little from these developers.

You can talk about Vit 0 Doomtrain - did old SMN have Vit 0 Doomtrain? No. No it did not. So it's irrelevant to the comparison/discussion between the two.

Like that. That was not a point made in support of old SMN's versatility, it was an observation about how the job's job flavor is weaker than it could be. Am I a summoner, or am I a vanilla buff-flinger?

Indeed, it was arguably less versatile before since you had to swap Egis for AOE vs single target vs loltanking (once pets couldn't be targeted anymore), where new SMN can do the AOE/single target (and loltanking) without having to swap out anything at all.

This ties into a tangent, actually, which has been on my mind off-and-on since I started playing. First, I'll reiterate the relevant point: being able to swap between the summons was more versatile than being required to cast them all.

Let me explain in more depth with an example.

Do you ever do old content, like Garuda EX, or Mog EX, or T7, or A1S, and your DNC or MCH or WHM clips one of the adds that you absolutely must not clip and wipes the raid, because an oGCD AoE is part of their normal raid rotation? The solution in those cases is learning to hold that cast until it's safe.

New SMN can't do that. It's so packed with obligate AoEs, at so many fixed intervals, at every levelcap, that it literally constrains fight design just by existing. Even in ARR you lose a bunch of DPS doing it and it feels absolutely awful. Old SMN, though? It could do it in ARR/HW levelcaps with the kind of clever shuffling you've extolled in new SMN. Spend both Ifrit-Assault 2s and Enkindle first, let them recharge while the add is active, lose 0 DPS. At higher levels, it would lose some DPS and some gameplay feel to delaying skills, but nothing on the order of what new SMN experiences.

Now, this is heavily reflective of my biases because it's formed by my experience in ARR/HW content, but that's my favorite content in the game, so tough cookies, I suppose. But if you only ever want your bosses to cast DDR patterns on the floor and for any adds to die on sight, sure, new SMN works fine.

If you ever want to design a new fight featuring anything more technical and clever to do with adds, though? Old SMN would have been pressed but could have done it, possibly with a little bit of DPS loss depending on the levelcap. New SMN lacks the versatility to handle it at every levelcap without losing massive DPS. I would not run 6.0 SMN in T7S, or any hypothetical future fight with tight add control requirements, under any circumstances short of someone offering to pay me real money.

You could say that with the amount of obligate AoEs in the game now, on multiple jobs, that it seems like they have no intention of doing anything clever with adds, ever again, but if so, why waste precious button slots splitting Shoha from Shoha 2 and Edge of Darkness from Flood of Darkness? I'm not sure that it's a foregone conclusion.

Also please note that they recently changed fights at lower levels as part of the dungeon revamps and actually removed a couple fun fights like this (old Snowcloak Yeti and Keeper of the Lake Einhander), so this isn't just a matter of cool ideas being stillborn at max level. We don't know what revamps will come to low-level content in the future, but if they're all DDR-patterning striking dummies, I will be... vexed.

And note again, before we disembark from this tangent, that this is only one facet of what I would consider 'versatility', but one which old SMN very appreciably has over new SMN: it can choose not to cast an AoE without being reduced to a one-button joke job.