Rotations: Making them DIFFERENT

[Renathras]

The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking.

That's fine, but the point still stands, pre-EW SMN was not like any Summoner in any other FF game. Point out a single other FF game where the Summoner character has a permanent minor-elemental pet.

It wasn't "versatile across the entire game". In ShB, Titan's tanking went away making it useless except for the shield and a slight bit better survivability on prog for the SMN player. It was essentially always Ifrit for single target and Garuda for AOE. There's nothing "versatile" about that. You were either doing it right or you were doing it wrong, and Garuda was, for all intents and purposes, Ifrit's AOE ability set. That's like saying new SMN is versatile across the entire game because it has both Ruin AND Outburst/Tri-Disaster.

MNK has Mantra. BRD has Warden/Minne and <insert Job name for Role ability> damage reduction. RDM has Verraise, Embolden, Magick Barrier, and Vercure. SMN has Resurrection, Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Rekindle, and (lol) Physic. Is your argument that SMN's non-damage party utility isn't oGCD? Searing Light is oGCD just like Embolden and the others.

I feel like you really liked old SMN and really dislike new SMN, so you aren't looking at things objectively, but I'm not sure, but SMN has plenty of non-damage utility that's not part of its rotation - as you note "The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking"; if true, you have to consider Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Resurrection, Rekindle, Radiant Aegis, and even Physic as part of its "entire kit".

You specifically limit it to "on-demand support oGCDs" to justify your position that is otherwise wrong. Moreover, those other things are hardly "on-demand". Use Mantra. Now 20 seconds later, use it again. What's that? You can't because it has a 2 min CD? That's not very "on-demand", is it? It's very limited. SMN's Resurrection can be cast at any time, making it already more on-demand at rasing support.

And, again, this is not something universal across all FF games, as some have Summoners that do not have too much support. Rydia is a more offensively oriented Black Caller/Summoner (once she returns as an adult), and most of her summons are attack spells with a few exceptions of big summons you have to win in fights, which are akin to EW SMN's Phoenix.

I do think Carbuncle is a complete waste of space/lost opportunity now, though. That I agree with. I'd like to see Radiant Aegis castable on other people and Carby to be given a (SCH) Ruin 2 spell, something it can just pelt the enemy with that are instant casts so they don't block clutch Aegis casts. I'd also like to see Carby stick around when you summon other things rather than be a vessel for them.

Asking around the internet, it seems a lot of people don't think "job flavor is so lacking" on EW SMN. The fact you're having to argue the point that people feel like it finally captures the feeling of a Summoner indicates that your position is not universal. Clearly people are seeing something you aren't.

I think it'd be a lot cooler if using the summons gave us an aspect of that summon. Like instead of Ifrit's 'slam the ground with a book' it summons Ifrit's claws to swipe at the enemy. Garuda's instantcasts being explained with 'you have her wings for those 4 GCDS', using Titan's fists to upheave the earth for his moves, etc. Like the summon comes out, does it's ultimate/LB/whatever, then you absorb it into your body to take part of it's physiology for the duration of the phase

Might be an engine thing. But then there's RPR, so...who knows? Something like FF16's attacks might be interesting in the future. Thing is, SMN is still a Caster, not a Melee. But there should be plenty of options for that. In FF16, Clive basically has an attack (melee) and spam spell (Fire, Aero, etc) in base form. But then there's a bunch of other ARPG stuff on top of that. FFXIV isn't an ARPG, so its Caster SMN won't be that. But it would be neat if the attacks were more like his Fire/Aero/Stone/etc.

Bio and miasma despite not having much feedback did seem slightly more because they're separate buttons pressed close to each other with different cast times and miasma has a heavy effect. I'm not sure where exactly the threshold of "sameyness" is, but summoner's definitely sailed past it.

I'm a bit confused about this. Gemshine for Titan and Garuda feel different (different cadence) and for Ifrit feels very different (long cast time). Astral Flow feels ENTIRELY different from all of those. And Gemshine and Astral flow are two separate buttons with different cast times. Even the different Gemshines have different cast times (Ifrit) and recast times (Garuda), and their Astral Flows also have different cast times, effects, and one is even a gap closer. I'm not sure how those feel the same to people.

Also, didn't they remove Miasma's Heavy a long time before removing the ability? It didn't have the Heavy in SB, did it? I thought it was something about reducing healing effectiveness...which was pretty much meaningless/useless since very few enemies after ARR actually heal each other, and in the rare solo instance there are healers, they're the first enemies I take out.

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I dunno, to me, EW SMN both feels more like a Final Fantasy Summoner than pre-EW SMN ever did, and its abilities also feel distinct and creative. I can very clearly tell when I'm in Garuda vs Titan (the two most similar) based on the 1-2 cadence of Titan vs the much faster 1111 of Garuda and the long cast of Slipstream. Like even those two feel different to me, and Ifrit feels completely different. For all the talk of pressing the same two PHYSICAL BUTTONS, the way you press them is different. It'd be like saying "Verholy and Scorch is just like hitting Verstone and Jolt". Or "Enchanted 1-2-3 melee on RDM feels the same as non-Enchanted 1-2-3". Clearly they do not, and no one's been making that argument despite it being this way (for VerHoly/Flare) since ShB, and for the melee combo since SB. People have always agreed they feel different, despite not taking up separate physical buttons.

I think that argument is overplayed.

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I really don't mean to disparage anyone, but I feel a lot of people don't like SMN for more ideological (for lack of a better word) reasons (they don't like the game being "dumbed down") and/or people who like DoT gameplay miss old SMN - and in both cases, people then take this pre-existing disgruntlement to argue against SMN and find reasons to justify it. It's like when someone has a poll result they want, so they make poll questions to generate that result rather than reflect reality. It blinds people to seeing things and allows them to justify their position by masking/putting on blinders, as it were.

Again, Enchanted weaponskills on RDM vs non-Enchanted ones. Same buttons, but no one complains they feel the same - because they don't. They feel different because of the different cadence (faster GCD) of using them, and they feel different because they build to something different than just hitting 1-2-3 without being Enchanted, and they feel different because they have a different visual and sound effect.

This is the same deal with SMN.