Rotations: Making them DIFFERENT

[ForsakenRoe]

The Ruby/Topaz/Emerald prefixed abilities have so little difference between them that it should be seen as antithetical to the job design, much as making all AST cards the same defeats the core idea.

They have so little difference in fact, they're the exact same VFX as the base Ruin cast, up until the level they become 'Ruby/Topaz/Emerald Rite' instead of just 'Ruby Ruin III' etc. Like, iirc they don't even change the color to suit the element or anything (I can't be bothered to log in to double check that so I might be wrong'

[Aravell]

They have so little difference in fact, they're the exact same VFX as the base Ruin cast, up until the level they become 'Ruby/Topaz/Emerald Rite' instead of just 'Ruby Ruin III' etc. Like, iirc they don't even change the color to suit the element or anything (I can't be bothered to log in to double check that so I might be wrong'

I was logged in, so I went and checked. No, they didn't change a thing about them, they look exactly like Ruin III, they couldn't even be bothered to tint it red/green/yellow or something.

[Renathras]

On SMN, I don't mean the visuals at all, actually. You have Ifrit's long casts and required melee range, Titan's total freedom of movement, or Garuda's mostly freedom with a VERY long cast. SMN is a DPS, so doing damage is what it's going to be. Much as I'd love having Summons to deal with different situations, I don't want SMN being made a Limited Job to get that.

My point was not that.

My point was that you have a rotation, but it's not rigid. Contrast DRG with SMN. The former is absolutely rigid. Buttons are essentially pushed in the same order more or less no matter what because of how its rotation works and how rigidly it flows between attacks. On the opposite end, you have something like BRD, which has no rotation. It has a priority system based on what's procing, an underlying long rotation of the songs, and then a filler attack for when nothing on your higher priority system is up/proced. SMN kind of straddles the line between these extremes, having a rotation that has waypoints of rigidity (Bahamut/Phoenix), but between those points has flexibility in how you get there.

I get it's easy to miss that if all you see them as is "damage vs damage", but...it's a DPS Job. They ALL are "damage vs damage" when it comes to their core rotation. Vercure is not part of the core rotation. RDM's buttons are also all "damage vs damage". That's the way it works due to the rigid combat system FFXIV has, so that's not what I'm talking about.

I do also disagree with your "non-FF players notion of..."; Summoners have been distinct across the history of the games to the point that isn't really a valid point. Sometimes even within the same game. Contrasting Garnet and Eiko's Summoning in FF9, for example, the latter has an array of support Summons and several uncommon elemental attack summmons (like Wind and Holy) while the former has mostly just direct attack summons which are more powerful. The attunement/augment effect of EW SMN also is vaguely similar to FFXVI's Clive, though in a pure caster form rather than Clive's hybrid caster/fighter form.

...the point being, FFXIV's SMN is distinct, as all FF game SMNs are, but well within the realm of what a Summoner is.

Pre-EW's SMN was not. You focus only on the mechanics (and only vaguely at that; Phoenix in EW and ShB is vastly more different than Ifrit and Garuda and Titan were from each other in ShB, for example) but I think that's why you miss how EW's SMN feels more like a FF Summoner to people. Pre-EW's version had a heavy focus on DoT gameplay (something Summoners in FF games...don't have; I can't actually think of a single one offhand whose primary gameplay revolves around DoT maintenance), and the Egis didn't feel or work like any Summons in any of the games other than maybe the one Tactics with Vann and Penello in it. No other iteration of Summoner that I can think of had a permanent follow-pet. The closest might be FF12's, but they were temporary big attacks (costing a charged resource to use) and ended with mega-attacks, which the Egis did not.

I can't think of a single FF game where the Summoner played like pre-EW's SMN did.

I was logged in, so I went and checked. No, they didn't change a thing about them, they look exactly like Ruin III, they couldn't even be bothered to tint it red/green/yellow or something.

I think this is what most pissed me off. I don't mind it having the same general animation as Ruin 1/2, but they didn't even give the little flying ball a red/green/yellow tint. you can't even tell if you're casting the elemental one or the normal one, visually.

[vetch]

On SMN, I don't mean the visuals at all, actually. You have Ifrit's long casts and required melee range, Titan's total freedom of movement, or Garuda's mostly freedom with a VERY long cast. SMN is a DPS, so doing damage is what it's going to be. Much as I'd love having Summons to deal with different situations, I don't want SMN being made a Limited Job to get that.
...
I get it's easy to miss that if all you see them as is "damage vs damage", but...it's a DPS Job. They ALL are "damage vs damage" when it comes to their core rotation. Vercure is not part of the core rotation. RDM's buttons are also all "damage vs damage". That's the way it works due to the rigid combat system FFXIV has, so that's not what I'm talking about.

The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking. I liked old SMN because it was the tiniest bit versatile across the entire game, not because it could shuffle a few buttons around to squeeze more uptime during a Savage raid.

MNK is a DPS. It still gets to have Mantra, a traditional FF Monk skill, with a healing-related function similar to its function in other games. BRD is a DPS, but it still gets to have Warden's and Minne and Troub, non-DPS utility songs similar to what traditional FF Bards have. DNC is a DPS, but it gets to have non-DPS support skills (which don't fit its traditional character because they were plundered from BRD, but that's another tangent). None of them are Limited Jobs. Why does SMN, with a legacy of being more support-capable than the also-DPS jobs Monk and Dancer, have fewer on-demand support oGCDs?

And why aren't the ones it has consistently-themed to old FF games? Why does RDM have the party-wide magic barrier while Carbuncle, the recurring Final Fantasy magic defense summon, gives a single-target barrier? Shouldn't that be reversed? Shouldn't Carbuncle be giving party-wide magic resistance and RDMs casting some kind of juicy single-target buff spells? Oh, but you can use Phoenix, one of the most powerful recovery tools in Final Fantasy, to apply a piddly regen and a heal. Not whenever you want, though, only during the pre-approved Phoenix phase for 15 out of every 120 seconds. Doing it whenever you want would just be silly! Boo.

Really, it feels like Carbuncle is only still there now because it's cute and you can make it follow you around town and that will appeal to people who don't play Final Fantasy, but oh, we need to make a head-fake toward it having some kind of function, so uhhhh... make it required for the actual combat summons. Why? What for? It's all so slapdash and lazy and points further toward a preoccupation with visuals.

And on the topic of damage, why does most of its damage GCD time consist of blapping people with a Variety-Pak of Ruin spells instead of, you know, summoning different magical creatures? You say DoTs and a pet don't feel like a Summoner, but a wizard who just shoots bolts from his hands 85% of the time does? Nuh.

Why is the job flavor so lacking on the job that 'finally feels like a Final Fantasy summoner'? Is all the praise because people were getting nothing for so long and now they're getting crumbs instead?

[ForsakenRoe]

Why is the job flavor so lacking on the job that 'finally feels like a Final Fantasy summoner'? Is all the praise because people were getting nothing for so long and now they're getting crumbs instead?

I think it'd be a lot cooler if using the summons gave us an aspect of that summon. Like instead of Ifrit's 'slam the ground with a book' it summons Ifrit's claws to swipe at the enemy. Garuda's instantcasts being explained with 'you have her wings for those 4 GCDS', using Titan's fists to upheave the earth for his moves, etc. Like the summon comes out, does it's ultimate/LB/whatever, then you absorb it into your body to take part of it's physiology for the duration of the phase

[Renathras]

The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking.

That's fine, but the point still stands, pre-EW SMN was not like any Summoner in any other FF game. Point out a single other FF game where the Summoner character has a permanent minor-elemental pet.

It wasn't "versatile across the entire game". In ShB, Titan's tanking went away making it useless except for the shield and a slight bit better survivability on prog for the SMN player. It was essentially always Ifrit for single target and Garuda for AOE. There's nothing "versatile" about that. You were either doing it right or you were doing it wrong, and Garuda was, for all intents and purposes, Ifrit's AOE ability set. That's like saying new SMN is versatile across the entire game because it has both Ruin AND Outburst/Tri-Disaster.

MNK has Mantra. BRD has Warden/Minne and <insert Job name for Role ability> damage reduction. RDM has Verraise, Embolden, Magick Barrier, and Vercure. SMN has Resurrection, Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Rekindle, and (lol) Physic. Is your argument that SMN's non-damage party utility isn't oGCD? Searing Light is oGCD just like Embolden and the others.

I feel like you really liked old SMN and really dislike new SMN, so you aren't looking at things objectively, but I'm not sure, but SMN has plenty of non-damage utility that's not part of its rotation - as you note "The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking"; if true, you have to consider Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Resurrection, Rekindle, Radiant Aegis, and even Physic as part of its "entire kit".

You specifically limit it to "on-demand support oGCDs" to justify your position that is otherwise wrong. Moreover, those other things are hardly "on-demand". Use Mantra. Now 20 seconds later, use it again. What's that? You can't because it has a 2 min CD? That's not very "on-demand", is it? It's very limited. SMN's Resurrection can be cast at any time, making it already more on-demand at rasing support.

And, again, this is not something universal across all FF games, as some have Summoners that do not have too much support. Rydia is a more offensively oriented Black Caller/Summoner (once she returns as an adult), and most of her summons are attack spells with a few exceptions of big summons you have to win in fights, which are akin to EW SMN's Phoenix.

I do think Carbuncle is a complete waste of space/lost opportunity now, though. That I agree with. I'd like to see Radiant Aegis castable on other people and Carby to be given a (SCH) Ruin 2 spell, something it can just pelt the enemy with that are instant casts so they don't block clutch Aegis casts. I'd also like to see Carby stick around when you summon other things rather than be a vessel for them.

Asking around the internet, it seems a lot of people don't think "job flavor is so lacking" on EW SMN. The fact you're having to argue the point that people feel like it finally captures the feeling of a Summoner indicates that your position is not universal. Clearly people are seeing something you aren't.

I think it'd be a lot cooler if using the summons gave us an aspect of that summon. Like instead of Ifrit's 'slam the ground with a book' it summons Ifrit's claws to swipe at the enemy. Garuda's instantcasts being explained with 'you have her wings for those 4 GCDS', using Titan's fists to upheave the earth for his moves, etc. Like the summon comes out, does it's ultimate/LB/whatever, then you absorb it into your body to take part of it's physiology for the duration of the phase

Might be an engine thing. But then there's RPR, so...who knows? Something like FF16's attacks might be interesting in the future. Thing is, SMN is still a Caster, not a Melee. But there should be plenty of options for that. In FF16, Clive basically has an attack (melee) and spam spell (Fire, Aero, etc) in base form. But then there's a bunch of other ARPG stuff on top of that. FFXIV isn't an ARPG, so its Caster SMN won't be that. But it would be neat if the attacks were more like his Fire/Aero/Stone/etc.

Bio and miasma despite not having much feedback did seem slightly more because they're separate buttons pressed close to each other with different cast times and miasma has a heavy effect. I'm not sure where exactly the threshold of "sameyness" is, but summoner's definitely sailed past it.

I'm a bit confused about this. Gemshine for Titan and Garuda feel different (different cadence) and for Ifrit feels very different (long cast time). Astral Flow feels ENTIRELY different from all of those. And Gemshine and Astral flow are two separate buttons with different cast times. Even the different Gemshines have different cast times (Ifrit) and recast times (Garuda), and their Astral Flows also have different cast times, effects, and one is even a gap closer. I'm not sure how those feel the same to people.

Also, didn't they remove Miasma's Heavy a long time before removing the ability? It didn't have the Heavy in SB, did it? I thought it was something about reducing healing effectiveness...which was pretty much meaningless/useless since very few enemies after ARR actually heal each other, and in the rare solo instance there are healers, they're the first enemies I take out.

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I dunno, to me, EW SMN both feels more like a Final Fantasy Summoner than pre-EW SMN ever did, and its abilities also feel distinct and creative. I can very clearly tell when I'm in Garuda vs Titan (the two most similar) based on the 1-2 cadence of Titan vs the much faster 1111 of Garuda and the long cast of Slipstream. Like even those two feel different to me, and Ifrit feels completely different. For all the talk of pressing the same two PHYSICAL BUTTONS, the way you press them is different. It'd be like saying "Verholy and Scorch is just like hitting Verstone and Jolt". Or "Enchanted 1-2-3 melee on RDM feels the same as non-Enchanted 1-2-3". Clearly they do not, and no one's been making that argument despite it being this way (for VerHoly/Flare) since ShB, and for the melee combo since SB. People have always agreed they feel different, despite not taking up separate physical buttons.

I think that argument is overplayed.

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I really don't mean to disparage anyone, but I feel a lot of people don't like SMN for more ideological (for lack of a better word) reasons (they don't like the game being "dumbed down") and/or people who like DoT gameplay miss old SMN - and in both cases, people then take this pre-existing disgruntlement to argue against SMN and find reasons to justify it. It's like when someone has a poll result they want, so they make poll questions to generate that result rather than reflect reality. It blinds people to seeing things and allows them to justify their position by masking/putting on blinders, as it were.

Again, Enchanted weaponskills on RDM vs non-Enchanted ones. Same buttons, but no one complains they feel the same - because they don't. They feel different because of the different cadence (faster GCD) of using them, and they feel different because they build to something different than just hitting 1-2-3 without being Enchanted, and they feel different because they have a different visual and sound effect.

This is the same deal with SMN.

[fulminating]

That's fine, but the point still stands, pre-EW SMN was not like any Summoner in any other FF game. Point out a single other FF game where the Summoner character has a permanent minor-elemental pet.

Point out a single other ff game where summoner is unalloyed. That'd be ff3, where you spam the highest level summon which is about as close to having a permanent pet as the game can support. Giving each summon an appropriate niche - ifrit for single target, garuda for aoe and titan for defence/2 target? helped reduce the sameyness. Hell, even having 11111111 and 12121212 for bahamut and phoenix respectively helped them feel more dissimilar.

"my friends say endwalker summoner entirely lacks both the established summoner identity of 14 and fails at emulating the traditional summoner so nyeh"


I think the amount I'm hitting the key doesn't help gemshine's case. It doesn't take long for the different speed to stop feeling unique to me, even with the weaves. Garuda puddle I usually swiftcast so that doesn't feel much different either.

I don't know if this helps explain it, especially since it doesn't actually mention the stuff I'm referring to, but with 5.x summoner for example you were building towards something even during downtime - further ruin stacks, dwt changed all ruins to instant cast rather than standing in place, tri disaster resetting with trance too iirc, occasionally moving the pet if need be. 6.x just don't use the aetherflow spender under phoenix and it'll be near enough. It's hollow, and every way I thought they adapted summoner well to the medium has been removed or sanded away to near-meaningless leaving this abortion people praise for reasons I cannot comprehend. They could easily have fixed the phoenix triple weave by moving firebird to stacks and keeping bahamut as "inner release". It's just yet another instance of the devs throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I've listened to other people's views and their explanations or lack thereof of why it's good now™, but all I can see is a cack-handed implementation of a cut down blue mage.

[vetch]

That's fine, but the point still stands, pre-EW SMN was not like any Summoner in any other FF game. Point out a single other FF game where the Summoner character has a permanent minor-elemental pet.

Why? I don't care about pet or not pet. I care about versatile versus not. With pet it was more versatile, but not because of the pet. They can design the job where the versatility and support options come from the summons, and I have been saying they should.

SMN has Resurrection, Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Rekindle, and (lol) Physic. Is your argument that SMN's non-damage party utility isn't oGCD? Searing Light is oGCD just like Embolden and the others.

Yes. Direct DPS increase buffs are not the kind of 'versatility' I'm looking for in my versatile caster. Almost every DPS job has those and I don't care about them. There's a reason I haven't been mentioning Searing Light, or Brotherhood, or Mage's/Army's/Wanderer's, or Mug, or Battle Litany, or-.

But now that you mention it, why is it a twinklebeam cast from the summoner himself instead of a summoned Doomtrain inflicting a 'VIT 0' status on the enemies or something like that? Or I guess in the context of FF14 primals, it could be Sri Lakshmi enthralling them to lower their defenses. More missed flavor opportunities.

I feel like you really liked old SMN and really dislike new SMN, so you aren't looking at things objectively, but I'm not sure, but SMN has plenty of non-damage utility that's not part of its rotation - as you note "The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking"; if true, you have to consider Searing Light, Everlasting Flight, Resurrection, Rekindle, Radiant Aegis, and even Physic as part of its "entire kit".

'Objectivity' is a spook haunting your mind. I don't need to be objective when I'm arguing for my preferences.

I didn't really like old SMN, the rotation didn't mesh with my brain, but I did like its versatility. I liked that it played differently in dungeons, and FATEs, and raids. And I freely admit to being partial to the Summons in the other Final Fantasy games where they offer more support options. I've... kind of been saying that over and over?

Anyway I already talked about how disappointing and false-to-theme Radiant Aegis and Phoenix's skills are and don't feel the need to recite the argument again when you can just re-read the other comment. Physick is cute and silly, I've certainly spammed it during downtime for lolz, but it's not a summon, is it? If they upgraded Physick to 'Kirin' at level 30 and it summoned a mystical beast to cast a weak regen on someone, well, now we're talking.

You specifically limit it to "on-demand support oGCDs" to justify your position that is otherwise wrong. Moreover, those other things are hardly "on-demand". Use Mantra. Now 20 seconds later, use it again. What's that? You can't because it has a 2 min CD? That's not very "on-demand", is it? It's very limited. SMN's Resurrection can be cast at any time, making it already more on-demand at rasing support.

lol. lmao.

I do think Carbuncle is a complete waste of space/lost opportunity now, though. That I agree with. I'd like to see Radiant Aegis castable on other people and Carby to be given a (SCH) Ruin 2 spell, something it can just pelt the enemy with that are instant casts so they don't block clutch Aegis casts. I'd also like to see Carby stick around when you summon other things rather than be a vessel for them.

Right? Like, pick a lane. Either we have an emotional support squirrel for hanging out in Ligma Lominsa with, or we have a combat pet. Him fricking off half the time so we can't even use his one ability when we need it is just annoying.

Asking around the internet, it seems a lot of people don't think "job flavor is so lacking" on EW SMN. The fact you're having to argue the point that people feel like it finally captures the feeling of a Summoner indicates that your position is not universal. Clearly people are seeing something you aren't.

Argumentum ad populum.

[Raikai]

The entire kit is used to give jobs flavor, so comparing core rotations only is not a tangent I'm interested in taking. I liked old SMN because it was the tiniest bit versatile across the entire game, not because it could shuffle a few buttons around to squeeze more uptime during a Savage raid.

MNK is a DPS. It still gets to have Mantra, a traditional FF Monk skill, with a healing-related function similar to its function in other games. BRD is a DPS, but it still gets to have Warden's and Minne and Troub, non-DPS utility songs similar to what traditional FF Bards have. DNC is a DPS, but it gets to have non-DPS support skills (which don't fit its traditional character because they were plundered from BRD, but that's another tangent). None of them are Limited Jobs. Why does SMN, with a legacy of being more support-capable than the also-DPS jobs Monk and Dancer, have fewer on-demand support oGCDs?

And why aren't the ones it has consistently-themed to old FF games? Why does RDM have the party-wide magic barrier while Carbuncle, the recurring Final Fantasy magic defense summon, gives a single-target barrier? Shouldn't that be reversed? Shouldn't Carbuncle be giving party-wide magic resistance and RDMs casting some kind of juicy single-target buff spells? Oh, but you can use Phoenix, one of the most powerful recovery tools in Final Fantasy, to apply a piddly regen and a heal. Not whenever you want, though, only during the pre-approved Phoenix phase for 15 out of every 120 seconds. Doing it whenever you want would just be silly! Boo.

Really, it feels like Carbuncle is only still there now because it's cute and you can make it follow you around town and that will appeal to people who don't play Final Fantasy, but oh, we need to make a head-fake toward it having some kind of function, so uhhhh... make it required for the actual combat summons. Why? What for? It's all so slapdash and lazy and points further toward a preoccupation with visuals.

And on the topic of damage, why does most of its damage GCD time consist of blapping people with a Variety-Pak of Ruin spells instead of, you know, summoning different magical creatures? You say DoTs and a pet don't feel like a Summoner, but a wizard who just shoots bolts from his hands 85% of the time does? Nuh.

Why is the job flavor so lacking on the job that 'finally feels like a Final Fantasy summoner'? Is all the praise because people were getting nothing for so long and now they're getting crumbs instead?

Carby currently just serves as a nuisance to make SMN's utility shield a bit less practical to use.

I don't mind it existing, but either put something for it to do or just make it optional. I'd love to have it out hanging on cities still, but not in combat.