Rotations: Making them DIFFERENT

[ForsakenRoe]

given Zepla seems to be rather fond of DNC.

To my knowledge, she was super into AST in SB (idk if it was her main though), but after it got SHB'd AND DNC came out at the same time she moved over to maining that, I don't know what she thinks of the game as of super recently because last time I saw anything about her she was on a Genshin deepdive and was saying that the patch that had just came out (loporrits i think) was so sparse on content it'd be the first patch she wouldn't log into 'on release day', because she can just do it later and not miss out on anything whatsoever. I also recall her mentioning quite passionately about the SB AST cards and how much she missed them (or at least, having different cards having different effects instead of flat +X% damage) so... yeh, my takeaway from what I've seen is that she misses the feeling of 'supporting the team' that old AST gave and the closest you can get now is, ironically not new AST, but DNC, given it's got a heal, mit, ST damage boost, raidbuff damage boost, crit/DHit booster for yourself and one ally, it now has Improv for HP% restored increase, plus shield, plus regen too

It also has, while quite simple to get into, an actual damage rotation with a very decent amount of depth to optimize with, so yeh, I'm not surprised that she is fond of DNC. I'm not a massive fan of DPS classes as a role, but I'd probably say DNC is my 'least disliked' as it were

@ForsakenRoe No kidding, SGE is so strange feeling at lower levels. Personally I wouldn't complain if they just made it that certain jobs couldn't do duties below a certain level via roulettes, but maybe that would cause other issues.

Doubt 'lock job out of low level content' would go down well, like imagine next expansions jobs (which start at 80) being told 'yeh so you cant do UCOB or UWU, like, at all'. What they need to do is add lower level forms of stuff earlier, and upgrade it later. There's no reason WHM has to go 76 levels before getting 'AOE Lily spender'. In fact, there's no real reason for it to only get it's job mechanic (lilies) at 52 with Solace. For SGE, add Holos (the shield part) early, and upgrade it to have the mit later at current level. Or add Krasis-but-10% earlier to help Kardia feel like it does something. Physis1 and Physis2 is a good example of it being done 'right', I think. You get 1 early on, and at 60 it upgrades to 2 and gains the 'bonus heal%' effect on top. Do that more

Also once this next expansion's over, we're gonna be level 100. Halve every duty's level requirement, and cut our max level to 50. ARR becomes 1-25, each expansion is a 5 level bracket instead of 10. This helps populate the levelling process, as you'll be getting your skills-or-traits every level pretty much.

A good example due to it currently having a TWELVE level gap in it's levelling, ARR BRD:

1: Heavy Shot
2: Straight Shot
3: Raging Strikes
4: Venomous Bite
6: Bloodletter
8: Repelling Shot (lol)
9: Quick Nock
12: Windbite
15: Mage's Ballad/job unlocked here
17: Warden's
19: Barrage
20: Army's Paeon
22: Rain of Death
25: Battle Voice/ARR level cap

Wow look at that, the biggest gap in learning is only three levels like this, not twelve, seriously, quicknock to windbite atm is 12 levels it's ridiculous. Yeh you get a 10% damage boost trait (bland and boring) and a couple of role actions like an interrupt (nothing to interrupt at that level except sprite autoattacks) and peloton (ok kinda cool, but combat removes it which would lose it points in the eyes of a new player i think), but a 12 level gap in learned 'core rotational abilities' should be... not a thing, methinks. Just having something like an intermediary upgrade to a skill, or a lower form of one, like the old 'Barrage that hits twice', which upgrades at current learn level to 'Barrage but it hits 3x' would be SOMEthing to fill the gap at least.

[vetch]

To hell with rotations, give me whatever 50BLM has going on.

[ty_taurus]

There's no reason WHM has to go 76 levels before getting 'AOE Lily spender'. In fact, there's no real reason for it to only get it's job mechanic (lilies) at 52 with Solace. For SGE, add Holos (the shield part) early, and upgrade it to have the mit later at current level. Or add Krasis-but-10% earlier to help Kardia feel like it does something. Physis1 and Physis2 is a good example of it being done 'right', I think. You get 1 early on, and at 60 it upgrades to 2 and gains the 'bonus heal%' effect on top. Do that more

Also once this next expansion's over, we're gonna be level 100. Halve every duty's level requirement, and cut our max level to 50. ARR becomes 1-25, each expansion is a 5 level bracket instead of 10. This helps populate the levelling process, as you'll be getting your skills-or-traits every level pretty much.

Regardless of how anyone feels about the EW rework of monk, something I think they really nailed with it was doing exactly this. The rework made sure to introduce core gameplay elements very early. Chakra is obtained at level 15 now, and you basically have your full rotation at level 50, which is what I think every job should have. Levels 15, 30, and 50 should each feel like a big step for every job.

The summoner rework also does this mostly well too regardless of the quality of the job as a whole. Having the Carbuncle Astral Flow available as an early Bahamut was a great way to make the core aspect of new Summoner available right away.

You don’t necessarily need a Physis be Physis II scenario involving two different animations (because animations are expensive), but just simply reduce the potency of other actions and then bring them back up later through a trait. I mentioned for dancer bringing Flourish down to level 50 and Saber Dance to somewhere between 50-60, but actually it should be Flourish at 30 and Saber Dance at 50. Fan Dance II is a pathetic “capstone.” (And personally I’d prefer to see Fan Dance I upgrade to II, stay ranged, but gain the AoE. Bloat isn’t a dancer problem, but I hate buttons bloat that exists for dungeon trash only.)

As for a level squish, there was a somewhat recent interview about making it to level 100 in the next expansion, and that we would probably stay at level 100 long term as it’s an iconic level cap for Final Fantasy. Afterward we’d look to alternative forms of progression.

[Post]

Well, if they stay at 100 maybe they'll finally fix leveling skill acquisition. I play a lot of MiNE stuff and it's unfortunate that much of the DPS portion of that content has been trivialized due to simplified rotations and, more importantly, massive potency bloat. In HW they had the foresight to include the option and give lasting replayability for old content, but this was hurt more than it needed to be in the wake of direct hit and ShB's potency values.

Credit where it's due, EW has done a better job at giving core rotational potency buffs from a trait between 81 and 90 for all jobs so it's not affecting older content, like physis 2. I just don't understand how they understood this during ARR (hence all the maim &mend traits) and just forgot afterwards. Maybe they didn't actually understand and still don't and just got lucky regarding not messing with old content too much this time around.

Jobs like SMN are not great in this regard because they already have basically all of their toolkits at low levels and are thus even more powerful at lower levels than max. I don't expect them to be able to balance jobs at every expansion cap, but being aware of how changing skills wholesale without traits would be a start. Also, SMN losing damage with Phoenix at 80 at EW's start and the fact that it still loses the ability to Summon Bahamut without a target from 70 when Aethercharge and Dreadwyrm trance allowed for it were signs they didn't really think it through entirely. I don't care if it's basically a misplay to summon without a target; a level 6 through 69 SMN shouldn't be faced with a more challenging DPS decision or execution than a higher level one, and I'm sure there's some edge case where a 90 SMN could get more use out of summoning early. That's what depth is, and it's what SMN or healers currently lack.


I think there's something to be said for allowing a job's rotation to at least get more involved as you level and not almost identical from 26 to 86 like SMN, but situations like BRD lacking one of their 3 songs at ARR level cap is a no-go for how the job is now designed.

[SenahPanipahr]

To hell with rotations, give me whatever 50BLM has going on.

Right?! It's weird that level 50 BLM feels more decision-heavy with mana than later levels.

I would love to see them develop that out and give WHM a mirror to it with its blood lilies and all, but even if we're lucky enough to get some actually "advanced" changes to Healer jobs, I suspect WHM will remain the simplest on account of Conjurer being a starting job. (In a way that's not directly comparable to Arcanist-into-Scholar.)

Well, if they stay at 100 maybe they'll finally fix leveling skill acquisition. I play a lot of MiNE stuff and it's unfortunate that much of the DPS portion of that content has been trivialized due to simplified rotations and, more importantly, massive potency bloat. In HW they had the foresight to include the option and give lasting replayability for old content, but this was hurt more than it needed to be in the wake of direct hit and ShB's potency values.

Credit where it's due, EW has done a better job at giving core rotational potency buffs from a trait between 81 and 90 for all jobs so it's not affecting older content, like physis 2. I just don't understand how they understood this during ARR (hence all the maim &mend traits) and just forgot afterwards. Maybe they didn't actually understand and still don't and just got lucky regarding not messing with old content too much this time around.

Jobs like SMN are not great in this regard because they already have basically all of their toolkits at low levels and are thus even more powerful at lower levels than max. I don't expect them to be able to balance jobs at every expansion cap,

I love MINE runs, probably my favourite thing to do in the duty-side of the game; but I'll be the first to admit it's a very janky solution to the problem. (Though jank is still preferable to the situation with WoW where it's basically impossible to experience old raids at the point they fit naturally in the story/levelling, nevermind in a state remotely comparable to release difficulty. Maybe if you're a streamer with a big following or have an extremely dope guild you can manage something through party sync? Idk the details of how that system works.)

You're right about the potency buffs though, I don't know why they needed to screw with older content like that. I can only speculate because I don't have the firsthand experience to back this up but: I can imagine Healing would be at least a little bit more engaging if potency increases hadn't made it so easy to replenish party health after the heavier raid-wides.

[Renathras]

someone who is progressing the story, the exact target of the 'make it less stressful for the casuals' changes SHB brought about,

Note that these are not the same people. Someone progressing the story may be a hardcore gamer, not a casual, and many casuals are up to date with the MSQ. Likewise, note the poster said specifically "I love support roles in other games", not "I am a casual" or "I love healer roles in other games", and in reply also noted "I imagine I'm not super representative, as I love learning complex systems".

I'm not saying that invalidates her views, but it is important to consider that it's not the same thing you're saying, and it really is more of what people say all the time - individual tastes.

I'd also say DNC/RDM might be more up her alley, as they are the most Support Jobs in the game and, as I've said before, if FFXIV would ever just bite the bullet and make a full on Support role, those two Jobs (along with at least BRD) would likely be its founding members.

(I do agree that FFXI's combat system being less rigid - thus allowing less rigid roles - is a pretty nice system. Wish more games would use it...)

Agreed with this, though:

They really gotta make more use of traits that upgrade things for jobs, give lower level/reduced effect versions of things (

As Ty said, SMN does this to great effect. Say what you will about the Job, it's more or less set by level 50 with its core rotation and everything added from there is kind of variations and additions to it. WAR does a pretty solid Job of this as well, with WAR at 50 playing a lot like WAR at 90 does, just with 90 having more flourish and some more utility (I mean the core rotation; obviously Raw Intuition is a game changer...)

[vetch]

WAR does a pretty solid Job of this as well, with WAR at 50 playing a lot like WAR at 90 does, just with 90 having more flourish and some more utility (I mean the core rotation; obviously Raw Intuition is a game changer...)

Maybe I'm being excessively technical but I don't really feel like this is true. The burst is a different shape (at 50 it's a DPS gain to put your third combo hit under Berserk instead of a third Inner Beast), you don't have your 'lol just burst whenever buffs go up' Inner Release button so you actually have to build to spend with your builder-spender, and the mitigation is far and away the *worst* of any tank's.

PLD is still the god of 50 MINE raid tanking (same as it ever was) but DRK and GNB are respectable too, with DRK lately getting an invuln that's tricky to maximize but excellent and GNB having extra mits and heals. Meanwhile WAR has less mits than every other tank and its "invuln" is extremely underpowered due to the empty healer kits. Sure, the WHM can Bene it at the last second or the AST can Synastry spam it, but, er, they can also just do that to any other, better tank. Oh, but WAR gets to pop Thrill of Battle for a Hi-Potion's worth of eHP. Yay.

[fulminating]

War mitigation at 50: reprisal, rampart, arm’s length sometimes, vengeance, thrill (ehp and heal up)
Pld mitigation at 50: ,,, ,,, ,,, sentinel, sheltron, shield bash sometimes (but add low blow to everyone)
Drk mitigation at 50: ,,, ,,, ,,, shadow wall, dark mind (magic only)
Gnb mitigation at 50: ,,, ,,, ,,, nebula, camouflage, (does aurora count?)
Blu mitigation at 50: addle, diamondback, bad breath, ice spikes, mighty guard, toad oil, magic hammer, avail, cactguard, devour, chelonian gate, dragonforce (take 4 away if you meant by 50 not at 50 (I also think I’m forgetting one, but can’t tell what it is(not that it matters much, blu80 must be in a fortnight or so)))

As my data clearly shows, blu is the best tank at level 50. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
But yeah, really they messed up reworking warrior so many times and changing the healing at lower caps. Honestly I wouldn’t have thought drk was significantly better at 50, but maybe the damage compensates - Then again warrior gets a 440 potency combo finisher, which despite no ogcds should probably put it near the front of the tanks in terms of damage?
I think I would argue that warrior lacking the diarrhoea button functionality at 50 makes it more engaging than 70, even despite the ogcds. It could probably do with inner beast having some life steal returned to it, but frankly I don’t really think anything is good at 50, nor 90 really. I also remain unconvinced that there is much thought put into sub-level-cap balance - not only warrior’s different burst, but bard’s missing song, samurai lacking the positionals until 52 (possibly not true since shb) , dancer potencies up to ~cutter’s cry.

And ultimately healer rotations don’t change all that much after getting the dot. Not to the degree warrior burst changes. I don’t consider that a good thing personally. Certainly not in summoner’s case.

[vetch]

The thing about that list is that Sheltron is so good for 50 raiding, you should count it twice.

Tank DPS matters less in 50 MINE. Potency creep on the DPS jobs makes bringing a lower DPS tank with superior mits a much more attractive option. The content still puts out more damage relative to max HP than any other tier, and importantly, the shape of the damage is different. Holmgang is well-suited for soaking TBs in the current 'giant overmax hit followed by nothing for 5 seconds while your healers pump you back up' design meta, but Coils is often heavy damage phases with crit-enabled autoattacks mixed in -- for example, split-tanking in T1 or T10, I can just use invuln on PLD or DRK and the healers can almost ignore me, but if I tried the same on WAR, I would likely die without a last-second Benediction. If a WHM isn't present I might as well not Holmgang at all because the healers are going to have to pocket me either way. And having to heal your tank more often is huge in content where heals actually cost 1000MP.

Even DRK's Dark Mind finds more use in Coils than warrior's -empty mitigation slot-.

[Renathras]

Maybe I'm being excessively technical but I don't really feel like this is true. The burst is a different shape (at 50 it's a DPS gain to put your third combo hit under Berserk instead of a third Inner Beast), you don't have your 'lol just burst whenever buffs go up' Inner Release button so you actually have to build to spend with your builder-spender, and the mitigation is far and away the *worst* of any tank's.

PLD is still the god of 50 MINE raid tanking (same as it ever was) but DRK and GNB are respectable too, with DRK lately getting an invuln that's tricky to maximize but excellent and GNB having extra mits and heals. Meanwhile WAR has less mits than every other tank and its "invuln" is extremely underpowered due to the empty healer kits. Sure, the WHM can Bene it at the last second or the AST can Synastry spam it, but, er, they can also just do that to any other, better tank. Oh, but WAR gets to pop Thrill of Battle for a Hi-Potion's worth of eHP. Yay.

Note that I'm not talking about MINE.

I'm talking about people leveling a Job for the first time learning how to play it.

WAR has all of its basic abilities by level 50 in terms of its main rotation and basic mechanics. It has both Storm's Eye and Storm's Path, and thus has the Surging Tempest upkeep buff established. Likewise Overpower and Mythril Tempest for AOE. It has Inner Beast as a low level Fell Cleave that works identically to Fell Cleave. It only lacks its oGCDs and Primal Rend, mechanically, and the pooling Beast Gauge is a bit more wonky, but is also a high end optimizing technique, not a basic "learn the rotation" staple.

In terms of its defensive toolkit, the only thing it's missing (though this isn't insignificant, don't get me wrong) is Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting, Nascent Flash, and Shake. Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone are functionally reskins of their non-Chaos versions, and Orogeny/Upheval are use on CD oGCDs. I suppose so is Onslaught (well, use on burst, rather).

Point is, the basic mechanics of the Job in a general rotational sense - 1-2-3, -4 to upkeep buff; build gauge, spend gauge; burst phase every 1 min - are all established by level 50.

CONTRAST PLD. PLD doesn't even have a self-heal by level 50. It doesn't get that until a trait at level 84 for Holy Spirit/Circle, abilities it doesn't get until levels 64 and 72, respectively. It doesn't have Requiescat until 68, Atonement until 76, Confetior until 80, or Swords combo until 90. Each of these things completely alters its base rotation. Level 64 is the first time it can be said to have something resembling it's level 90 filler rotation, though not really until 76 with Atonement, and it doesn't have any rotational upkeep/self-healing until 84, having to rely on Clemency (58) for that. It gets Divine Veil first (56).

Granted, this isn't as bad as before 6.3, but it's still pretty bad.

If we're talking about "someone progressing the story", MINE isn't really the conversation.

.

Though I will agree with you that raids were designed differently back then. Something I wish more people did realize these days.