Rotations: Making them DIFFERENT

[SenahPanipahr]

As for the post I'm responding to, I'd recommend looking into Dancer[...]

I actually have levelled every job to somewhere between 70 and 81 (except RPR, haven't unlocked that yet) so I have tried dancer a bit. Personally I have found it very dull compared to BRD, but maybe it becomes a little more interesting later on (much how early DRG is extremely rote but actually fun from around 72). Since you choose three jobs in the character selection screen on the forum, I just picked the jobs I play most in each role (RDM, SCH, PLD(/DRK)), and assumed all three would show up. Silly me!

I imagine I'm not super representative, as I love learning complex systems (enough that I've been getting into FFXI retail -- in no small part a result of my disappointment with job diversity in XIV). But I can't say I think you're wrong or anything ... maybe the "toxic casuals" ("you don't pay for my sub" types) would disagree, but I'm not sure anyone could in the long run. Healer is a fun way to experience new content, but once you know it (and more importantly, once others know it too) it quickly goes downhill.

The sad reality is, as a Healer main I've ended up subconsciously assuming other Healers struggle with the mechanics if they're playing those jobs by choice, because contrary to all the commends you get, it's far too easy. I mained Healer because I like the concept, but a big part of it was that it's often the only way to reliably cause the previous endgame raids and alliances to fire as you're progressing their questlines. But that just reinforces the sad truth that almost no one seems to want to play Healer at the moment. I can't imagine how many more hours I'd have wasted waiting on those queues to fire as a DPS...

Sage feels like a step in the right direction, but also highlights how bad the situation is; that the "DPS-focused Healer" still spends most of the time mashing the same button.

The lack of hard job roles in FFXI has been such a breath of fresh air from this system where 3/4 Healers are almost exactly the same during 99% of playtime, and 3/4 Tanks are the same builder-spender playstyle. The perceived need for everything to be perfectly balanced so you can take your "class fantasy" to any content is backfiring when the expression of that class fantasy is only skin-deep aesthetics, and the actual gameplay is exactly the same 99% of the time.

I've refrained from trying to buy a house despite having the crafting skills to furnish one, because I can't imagine myself continuing my sub enough to keep it in the long term. Maybe that's a different issue, but the collective experience of such startling highs and depressing lows is really starting to upset me.

[ty_taurus]

I actually have levelled every job to somewhere between 70 and 81 (except RPR, haven't unlocked that yet) so I have tried dancer a bit. Personally I have found it very dull compared to BRD, but maybe it becomes a little more interesting later on (much how early DRG is extremely rote but actually fun from around 72).

Honestly, Dancer really relies on its entire kit to feel more fulfilling. A lot of the enjoyment, for me at least, stems from trying to set up every burst window to be as perfect as possible. It's a job that I think really suffers from having so many of its more interesting tools earned so late. I really want to see Flourish moved down to level 50, a weaker Saber Dance learned between 50 and 60, and Fan Dance IV moved down to 74. It would help the leveling experience and the synched experience a lot more.

[ForsakenRoe]

Honestly, Dancer really relies on its entire kit to feel more fulfilling.

Happens to a lot of jobs nowadays, annoyingly. RPR feels dogwater without Enshroud which you only get at 80, SGE feels more and more wonky the lower you sync, as you're forced into more and more GCD healing to cover the OGCDs you normally have, and I'd never have decided to do SHB story as GNB if it weren't for being able to see what it's like at 70 via HOH, Continuation instantly sold me on the job but without that HOH run to test it, GNB-at-60 was WAR level dull to me

They really gotta make more use of traits that upgrade things for jobs, give lower level/reduced effect versions of things (eg, at one point Barrage gave your next attack 2 hits, and a trait later made it be 3 hits). DNC not getting Flourish till 72 makes the class feel like a car that can't start cos it's too cold

[Renathras]

someone who is progressing the story, the exact target of the 'make it less stressful for the casuals' changes SHB brought about,

Note that these are not the same people. Someone progressing the story may be a hardcore gamer, not a casual, and many casuals are up to date with the MSQ. Likewise, note the poster said specifically "I love support roles in other games", not "I am a casual" or "I love healer roles in other games", and in reply also noted "I imagine I'm not super representative, as I love learning complex systems".

I'm not saying that invalidates her views, but it is important to consider that it's not the same thing you're saying, and it really is more of what people say all the time - individual tastes.

I'd also say DNC/RDM might be more up her alley, as they are the most Support Jobs in the game and, as I've said before, if FFXIV would ever just bite the bullet and make a full on Support role, those two Jobs (along with at least BRD) would likely be its founding members.

(I do agree that FFXI's combat system being less rigid - thus allowing less rigid roles - is a pretty nice system. Wish more games would use it...)

Agreed with this, though:

They really gotta make more use of traits that upgrade things for jobs, give lower level/reduced effect versions of things (

As Ty said, SMN does this to great effect. Say what you will about the Job, it's more or less set by level 50 with its core rotation and everything added from there is kind of variations and additions to it. WAR does a pretty solid Job of this as well, with WAR at 50 playing a lot like WAR at 90 does, just with 90 having more flourish and some more utility (I mean the core rotation; obviously Raw Intuition is a game changer...)

[vetch]

WAR does a pretty solid Job of this as well, with WAR at 50 playing a lot like WAR at 90 does, just with 90 having more flourish and some more utility (I mean the core rotation; obviously Raw Intuition is a game changer...)

Maybe I'm being excessively technical but I don't really feel like this is true. The burst is a different shape (at 50 it's a DPS gain to put your third combo hit under Berserk instead of a third Inner Beast), you don't have your 'lol just burst whenever buffs go up' Inner Release button so you actually have to build to spend with your builder-spender, and the mitigation is far and away the *worst* of any tank's.

PLD is still the god of 50 MINE raid tanking (same as it ever was) but DRK and GNB are respectable too, with DRK lately getting an invuln that's tricky to maximize but excellent and GNB having extra mits and heals. Meanwhile WAR has less mits than every other tank and its "invuln" is extremely underpowered due to the empty healer kits. Sure, the WHM can Bene it at the last second or the AST can Synastry spam it, but, er, they can also just do that to any other, better tank. Oh, but WAR gets to pop Thrill of Battle for a Hi-Potion's worth of eHP. Yay.

[Renathras]

Maybe I'm being excessively technical but I don't really feel like this is true. The burst is a different shape (at 50 it's a DPS gain to put your third combo hit under Berserk instead of a third Inner Beast), you don't have your 'lol just burst whenever buffs go up' Inner Release button so you actually have to build to spend with your builder-spender, and the mitigation is far and away the *worst* of any tank's.

PLD is still the god of 50 MINE raid tanking (same as it ever was) but DRK and GNB are respectable too, with DRK lately getting an invuln that's tricky to maximize but excellent and GNB having extra mits and heals. Meanwhile WAR has less mits than every other tank and its "invuln" is extremely underpowered due to the empty healer kits. Sure, the WHM can Bene it at the last second or the AST can Synastry spam it, but, er, they can also just do that to any other, better tank. Oh, but WAR gets to pop Thrill of Battle for a Hi-Potion's worth of eHP. Yay.

Note that I'm not talking about MINE.

I'm talking about people leveling a Job for the first time learning how to play it.

WAR has all of its basic abilities by level 50 in terms of its main rotation and basic mechanics. It has both Storm's Eye and Storm's Path, and thus has the Surging Tempest upkeep buff established. Likewise Overpower and Mythril Tempest for AOE. It has Inner Beast as a low level Fell Cleave that works identically to Fell Cleave. It only lacks its oGCDs and Primal Rend, mechanically, and the pooling Beast Gauge is a bit more wonky, but is also a high end optimizing technique, not a basic "learn the rotation" staple.

In terms of its defensive toolkit, the only thing it's missing (though this isn't insignificant, don't get me wrong) is Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting, Nascent Flash, and Shake. Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone are functionally reskins of their non-Chaos versions, and Orogeny/Upheval are use on CD oGCDs. I suppose so is Onslaught (well, use on burst, rather).

Point is, the basic mechanics of the Job in a general rotational sense - 1-2-3, -4 to upkeep buff; build gauge, spend gauge; burst phase every 1 min - are all established by level 50.

CONTRAST PLD. PLD doesn't even have a self-heal by level 50. It doesn't get that until a trait at level 84 for Holy Spirit/Circle, abilities it doesn't get until levels 64 and 72, respectively. It doesn't have Requiescat until 68, Atonement until 76, Confetior until 80, or Swords combo until 90. Each of these things completely alters its base rotation. Level 64 is the first time it can be said to have something resembling it's level 90 filler rotation, though not really until 76 with Atonement, and it doesn't have any rotational upkeep/self-healing until 84, having to rely on Clemency (58) for that. It gets Divine Veil first (56).

Granted, this isn't as bad as before 6.3, but it's still pretty bad.

If we're talking about "someone progressing the story", MINE isn't really the conversation.

.

Though I will agree with you that raids were designed differently back then. Something I wish more people did realize these days.

[vetch]

Note that I'm not talking about MINE.

I'm talking about people leveling a Job for the first time learning how to play it.

Oh, I see.

I feel like I'm the exact wrong person to sympathize with your paladin example, having picked a gladiator for my first character, liking sword and board aesthetics, liking Cecil FF4, and then, upon finding out I'd be spending half my time at max level not hitting people but rather summoning dorky magic swords like a Bleach character, promptly shelving the character. When I do play the job I do so at low levels exclusively, so that I can still enjoy it.

[ForsakenRoe]

CONTRAST PLD. PLD doesn't even have a self-heal by level 50. It doesn't get that until a trait at level 84 for Holy Spirit/Circle, abilities it doesn't get until levels 64 and 72, respectively. It doesn't have Requiescat until 68, Atonement until 76, Confetior until 80, or Swords combo until 90. Each of these things completely alters its base rotation. Level 64 is the first time it can be said to have something resembling it's level 90 filler rotation, though not really until 76 with Atonement, and it doesn't have any rotational upkeep/self-healing until 84, having to rely on Clemency (58) for that. It gets Divine Veil first (56).

Granted, this isn't as bad as before 6.3, but it's still pretty bad.

Funny, I think pre-6.3 PLD was good at this concept too. At 50 you have 123. At 60, you swapped every 4th 123 to a 124 to apply Goring (also 3 gets stronger as it becomes Royal). At 70 you have two 123s swapped out to do a magic burst window with Req and Holy Spirit. At 80 you swap the final Holy Spirit to a Confiteor, and any 123 that comes after a 123, into 3 Atonements. At 80, you swap the 124 immediately following the magic burst to the Blades combo. It all built upon itself in the same way that BLM has distinct, yet slight, rotational changes that do not completely upend the rotation each expansion, but slot into it (we don't talk about 50>60).

It's the reworked PLD that is the problem, because it doesn't feel like it makes much sense until you get Holy Spirit. Its like they designed that around the assumption that everyone was already 90, but designed the previous PLD around the assumption that people were levelling it from 1-90

[Aravell]

Honestly, Dancer really relies on its entire kit to feel more fulfilling. A lot of the enjoyment, for me at least, stems from trying to set up every burst window to be as perfect as possible. It's a job that I think really suffers from having so many of its more interesting tools earned so late. I really want to see Flourish moved down to level 50, a weaker Saber Dance learned between 50 and 60, and Fan Dance IV moved down to 74. It would help the leveling experience and the synched experience a lot more.

Honestly, DNC feels extra awful in UCoB and UWU because they don't have Flourish. It always feels like something is missing whenever you use Technical Step. Same as RPR feeling extra awful in TEA because you don't have Communio, so Enshroud kind of just ends, also no Plentiful Harvest for Enshroud opener. SAM also feeling generally awful in lv70 content.

[SenahPanipahr]

Honestly, Dancer really relies on its entire kit to feel more fulfilling. A lot of the enjoyment, for me at least, stems from trying to set up every burst window to be as perfect as possible. It's a job that I think really suffers from having so many of its more interesting tools earned so late. I really want to see Flourish moved down to level 50, a weaker Saber Dance learned between 50 and 60, and Fan Dance IV moved down to 74. It would help the leveling experience and the synched experience a lot more.

That explains it I guess. Most of my dancer experience has been tiredly retreading the Crystal Tower alliance raids (I wish they'd lower the item level sync, if they refuse to incentivise people running/unlocking other alliance raids), or if I'm lucky, one of the Mhach raids. Maybe I assumed because I already have everything bound and it's not that many buttons that it wouldn't play very differently at higher levels, but I understand the error in presuming that. I did wonder if I was missing something, given Zepla seems to be rather fond of DNC.

@ForsakenRoe No kidding, SGE is so strange feeling at lower levels. Personally I wouldn't complain if they just made it that certain jobs couldn't do duties below a certain level via roulettes, but maybe that would cause other issues.