What if Tanks were designed like Healers?

[ty_taurus]

We've discussed before the disparity between the tank and healer role--two roles that both have DPS as a secondary responsibility and yet are treated entirely different to one another. There have been agreements and disagreements on this stance, so I want to pose the question: What would the tanks look like now if they were designed the same way that healers were designed? Does this function? Would this be a fun playstyle?

I'll start by sharing my take on Paladin if it were designed the same way as the healers. Numbers might be wonky as there isn't much of a reference point for this, but values aside, what do you think of this concept below? While this is ultimately discussing a tank and not a healer, the purpose of this is to see if the healer methodology translates to other roles and what that means for the healer methodology.

Level 1: Fast Blade - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 160.

Level 2: Guard - GCD - Reduces damage taken by 10% for 5 seconds. Additional: Generates enmity on all nearby enemies.

Level 4: Goring Blade - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 70. Additional: Deals damage over time with a potency of 70 for 30 seconds.

Level 10: Wall - GCD - Reduces damage taken by self and all nearby party members by 5% for 5 seconds.

Level 10: Iorn Will - OGCD - Significantly increase Emity generation.

Level 10: Release Iron Will - OGCD - Cancels the effects of Iron Will

Level 15: Shield Lob - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 100 (ranged).

Level 18: Fast Blade II - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 200. (Fast Blade Upgrade)

Level 30: Sacred Shield - GCD - Reduces damage taken by 15% for 10 seconds. Costs 1600 MP

Level 30: Fight or Flight - OGCD - Increases damage dealt by 20% for 20 seconds. 120 second recast timer.

Level 35: Sheltron - OGCD - Reduces damage taken by 15% for 6 seconds. Costs 50 Oath Gauge. 5 second recast timer.

Level 40: Sentinel - OGCD - Reduces damage taken by 30% for 15 seconds. 120 second recast timer.

Level 45: Cover - OGCD - Take all the damage intended for another party member within 10 yalms. Costs 50 Oath Gauge. 120 second recast timer.

Level 46: Total Eclipse - GCD - Deals damage to all nearby enemies with a potency of 140.

Level 50: Sacred Shield II - GCD - Applies 5 stacks of Sacred Shield II to self and all nearby party members. Taking damage consumes 1 stack and decreases the total damage suffered by 5%. Lasts 20 seconds. Costs 2000 MP.

Level 50: Hallowed Ground - OGCD - Renders you impervious to most attacks for 10 seconds. 420 second recast timer.

Level 52: Bulwark - OGCD - Blocks incoming attacks for 10 seconds. 90 second recast timer.

Level 54: Fast Blade III - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 230. (Upgrade of Fast Blade II)

Level 54: Goring Blade II - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 75. Additional: Deals damage over time with a potency of 75 for 30 seconds (Upgrade of Goring Blade)

Level 56: Circle of Scorn - OGCD - Deals damage with a potency of 400. Additional: Reduces damage dealt by all enemies hit by 5% for 10 seconds. Additional: Restores 5% of your MP. 40 second recast timer.

Level 58: Clemency - GCD - Restores target's HP with a potency of 1000. Additional: Receive 50% of the heal value for yourself when healing another party member. Costs 2000 MP.

Level 60: Total Protection - OGCD - Creates a barrier around self or target party member that absorbs damage equivalent to a heal of 600 potency. 60 second recast timer.

Level 62: Intervention - OGCD - Reduces target party member's damage taken by 10% for 8 seconds; increases by an additional 10% of Rampart or Sentinel are active. Additional: Grants Knight's Resolve to target, reducing damage taken by 10% for 4 seconds. Additional: Grants Knight's Benediction to target gradually restoring HP with a potency of 250 for 12 seconds. Costs 50 Oath Gauge. 10 Second recast timer.

Level 64: Fast Blade IV - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 260. (Upgrade of Fast Blade III)

Level 66: Divine Veil - OGCD - Creates a barrier around self and nearby party members that absorbs damage based on 10% of your maximum HP for 30 seconds. Additional: Restores HP to self and nearby party members with a potency of 400. 90 second recast timer.

Level 70: Passage of Arms - OGCD - Increases block rate to 100% and creates a designated area in a cone behind you in which party members will only suffer 85% of all damage inflicted for 18 seconds. Effect ends upon using another action or moving (including facing a different direction). 120 second recast timer.

Level 72: Royal Authority - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 290. (Upgrade of Fast Blade IV)

Level 72: Holy Spirit - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 200. (Ranged) (Upgrade of Shield Lob)

Level 72: Goring Blade III - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 80. Additional: Deals damage over time with a potency of 80 for 30 seconds. (Upgrade of Goring Blade II)

Level 74: Intervene - OGCD- Rushes to a target enemy. Additional: Inflicts Bind for 4 seconds. 30 second recast timer. 2 charges.

Level 76: Holy Grace - GCD - Creates a barrier around self or target party member that absorbs damage equivalent to a heal of 300 potency. Generates 1 charge of retribution. 20 second GCD recast timer. 3 charges.

Level 80: Confiteor - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 1280 for the first enemy and 50% less damage for all enemies nearby the target. Can only be used after generating 3 charges of retribution.

Level 82: Royal Authority II - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 320 (Upgrade of Royal Authority).

Level 82: Holy Circle - GCD - Deals damage with a potency of 150 to all nearby enemies (Upgrade of Total Eclipse).

Level 86: Holy Sheltron - OGCD - Reduces damage taken by 15% for 8 seconds. Additional: Grants Knight's Resolve, reducing damage taken by 15% for 4 seconds. Additional: Grants Knight's Benediction, gradually restoring HP with a potency of 250 for 12 seconds. Costs 50 Oath Gauge. (Upgrade of Sheltron)

Level 90: Saintly Shelter - OGCD - Erects a field of protective energy at a designated location and grants 5 stacks of Saintly armor to self for the next 15 seconds. Each time you suffer damage, consumes 1 stack of Saintly armor to restore HP to all party members standing within the field effect based on 30% of the damage suffered; this effect can only occur once per second. Recasting Saintly Shelter consumes all remaining stacks of Saintly armor to erect a barrier around self that absorbs HP equivalent to 10% of your maximum HP per stack consumed and lasts for 15 seconds. 180 second recast timer.

[HyperiusUltima]

[HyperiusUltima]

In all seriousness though, they need to give Healers SOMETHING. Like, literally something that is not just...HEALING. That's what makes Tanks more retroactive and enjoyable in some respects: They do more than what their job initially is intended for. With Healers though? It's just...one button. Two every 30s. That's mind-numbing.

[Sparkthor]

There is a base reason tanks are not designed the same way healer are : Tanking abilities need to have some cooldown, while healing ones need to have a solution where there is nothing left. Also, Tanks are physical melee jobs, and base FFXIV design en physical melee jobs is combo. While healer are mage, and mage base design in FFXIV is spam the same spell again and again, and dot. Even the SUM in HW was mostly Ruin spam. A bit less because bio and miasma were on 18 and 24s duration, but after tri-disaster you were going Ruin until bio fade out, and when going for Bahamut transe were Spam Ruin III.

In your exemple, Guard and Wall would be dead/trap actions. Even more dead/trap than Tank stance in SB or current gcd heal actions, while at least, healing GCD is extremely situationnal and mostly something you'ill see in progress/failure recovery than current boss routine.

What it would be nice to do is both reducing healing kits of healer, to make them more reliant of GCD heal, and giving some more engaging DPS tools outside nuke/dot. If they had to do mone thing is giving a more flashy burst phase (we are talking the current state of the game), because the other solution : making bosses hit so hard that healer cannot do anything else than healing is not gonna happened.

[ty_taurus]

In all seriousness though, they need to give Healers SOMETHING. Like, literally something that is not just...HEALING. That's what makes Tanks more retroactive and enjoyable in some respects: They do more than what their job initially is intended for. With Healers though? It's just...one button. Two every 30s. That's mind-numbing.

"But healers are meant to HEAL" -someone, probably.

There is a base reason tanks are not designed the same way healer are : Tanking abilities need to have some cooldown, while healing ones need to have a solution where there is nothing left. Also, Tanks are physical melee jobs, and base FFXIV design en physical melee jobs is combo. While healer are mage, and mage base design in FFXIV is spam the same spell again and again, and dot. Even the SUM in HW was mostly Ruin spam. A bit less because bio and miasma were on 18 and 24s duration, but after tri-disaster you were going Ruin until bio fade out, and when going for Bahamut transe were Spam Ruin III.

In your exemple, Guard and Wall would be dead/trap actions. Even more dead/trap than Tank stance in SB or current gcd heal actions, while at least, healing GCD is extremely situationnal and mostly something you'ill see in progress/failure recovery than current boss routine.

What it would be nice to do is both reducing healing kits of healer, to make them more reliant of GCD heal, and giving some more engaging DPS tools outside nuke/dot. If they had to do mone thing is giving a more flashy burst phase (we are talking the current state of the game), because the other solution : making bosses hit so hard that healer cannot do anything else than healing is not gonna happened.

There's no rule that suggests melee jobs must have a combo or that ranged/casters cannot have combos. A pattern does not indicate requirement. I don't see how having 1 singular melee attack somehow makes it impossible for tanks to perform their job so long as the numbers add up, nor does having GCD traps like Guard and Wall. Healers have Cure/Physick/Benefic/Diagnosis as GCD traps, amongst a few others arguably and content is still clearable at all levels.

For the record, I'm not advocating for this style, but the question is about whether or not the game is playable and the content is clearable under this model, because that's all that seems to matter for healer design. Values can be adjusted to strike the right balance, but what matters is if the actual functionality of such tools allows the tank to perform the necessary responsibilities that are needed for any given fight to end in victory.

[ForsakenRoe]

I like the part where instead of Fast Blade becoming Riot Blade, it's just Fast Blade II, very accurate to the healer design

Tanking abilities need to have some cooldown, while healing ones need to have a solution where there is nothing left.

So why is it that a healer can spam every OGCD they like, and still have Medica or Cure2 as the 'fallback option', but when a tank spams out every OGCD defensive they like, they're left dry when the next TB comes and splats them? Why does the healer not have to suffer from 'oops I spent everything now I'm boned' punishment? Can't say 'tank dying doesn't cause a wipe' because often times it very much does spiral into a wipe

What it would be nice to do is both reducing healing kits of healer, to make them more reliant of GCD heal, and giving some more engaging DPS tools outside nuke/dot. If they had to do mone thing is giving a more flashy burst phase (we are talking the current state of the game), because the other solution : making bosses hit so hard that healer cannot do anything else than healing is not gonna happened.

Go do P10, or better yet, P10S. Harrowing Hell forces the healers to spam GCDs because it hits so hard. It's not fun. Not even remotely fun. It's just 'use basically every mit across the party, press Cure3/Succor/Helios/E-Prognosis 7 times'. How anyone can honestly think 'make the bosses hit harder so we GCD heal more' is going to lead to more fun gameplay boggles my mind, because I DO fight bosses that make me GCD heal more. The fun doesn't come from pressing those GCD heals, it comes from finding ways to avoid them, despite the higher incoming damage. Dominion was not fun last tier (I was WHM for first clear), J-Waves in TEA was not fun (I was WHM, my job was 'Temp at 5' and cure3 spam), Harrowing Hell was not really that fun (it just required using one braincell to remember 'don't use CDs on the debuff-into-lines bit before HH'). Now, trying to work out how you can get away with doing some Glares DURING Harrowing Hell, that might be a little bit interesting

"But healers are meant to HEAL" -someone, probably.

See, I was thinking earlier, how to describe 'what sets apart a Tank, Healer and a DPS', and the conclusion I came to was 'what are the majority of their OGCD skills dedicated to'. Tanks have a GCD loop, but most of their OGCDs are self or party defensive in nature. DPS have a GCD loop, but most of their OGCDs are either damage, damage amp for themselves, or partywide damage 'roids like Battle Litany or Brotherhood. Healers have a GCD (can't say loop, can I), and their OGCDs are mainly healing, healing amp, HOT, Mitigation, etc.

But, that's the point. it's the OGCDs that are the deciding factor for which role the job belongs to. The GCD loop for the filler is shared across tanks, melee, p-ranged (to an extent, BRD's weird), it's casters and healers that are set apart. And casters get to have their own unique quirks, like everyone's fine with RDM having a proccy system of 4 spells that chain into each other, with Jolt as the 'no procs sadge' backup, or BLM being the 'arcane mage' of the game. But healers are stuck with 'arcane mage' gameplay, without the system that makes arcane mage what it is (burn/conserve phases for MP economy)

TLDR I am once again asking for Dia to be shorter and ONE more GCD action for WHM this is not an outrageously large ask this is in fact the smallest possible ask I can imagine

[AmiableApkallu]

I'll start by sharing my take on Paladin if it were designed the same way as the healers.

No AoE until Lv.46, eh? I'm curious how dungeons up through Stone Vigil would play out.

[ty_taurus]

No AoE until Lv.46, eh? I'm curious how dungeons up through Stone Vigil would play out.

Guard offers aoe enmity without taunting the players gameplay with DPS. A “pure tank” action one might say.

[AmiableApkallu]

Guard offers aoe enmity without taunting the players gameplay with DPS. A “pure tank” action one might say.

That's no fun.

Seriously, though, I bet the kit works, and it faithfully recreates WHM: a few abilities that are there to make the job minimally functional, a few abilities that are (or could be) iconic, and a whole slew of abilities that are minor variations on "reduce damage."

[ty_taurus]

So why is it that a healer can spam every OGCD they like, and still have Medica or Cure2 as the 'fallback option', but when a tank spams out every OGCD defensive they like, they're left dry when the next TB comes and splats them? Why does the healer not have to suffer from 'oops I spent everything now I'm boned' punishment? Can't say 'tank dying doesn't cause a wipe' because often times it very much does spiral into a wipe

You also can't really say the healer not healing can cause a wipe either, at least not in every case. There are many fights, even 8-man fights where the party can leave both healers dead on the floor and clear with whatever sustain is provided by tanks and DPS.