Is there a way to fix savage?

[DrWho2010]

What you have explained is how the system works, which i pointed out it is doing what it is supposed to do (and i understand WHY it is in place). The problem is it is incredibly limiting. "You're meant to be doing other things", but why does the same logic not apply to Extreme, Ultimate, or Unreal? Ultimate (on patch) and Unreal both have weekly lockouts but don't stop the player from jumping back in even after receiving their reward.

You just answered your own question - it is incredibly limiting - because it is supposed to be limiting. Keep people around longer for more sub time. If you can't help yourself from jumping back in to the same content, well, that's something you have to deal with. It's not something for the devs to change to suit that mentality better.

Neither point you made here applies...at all. They've already progressed through multiple fights in my example, and they don't get things "quicker". If you only need gear from 11 for example, you can still jump into 11. You just can't get anything from 9 or 10 that week. If you need gear from 9 and/or 10 still, you still have to clear those fights, which takes time.... So?

they just don't want people jumping ahead, that's all. and if you're only doing 11 or 12 that week, you're not spending time wiping in 9 or 10 to get there. *shrug*

Remember this is a subscription game, so anything keeping people around longer is something they want.

But we've seen also the devs cave little by little over the years now, due to the increase in the number of jobs available to us. It's just a matter of time.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Yeah, welcome to the "spirit" of MMO gameplay. Where you tackle a challenge with a group of people and have those sweet victories.

[GaiusDrakon]

What you have explained is how the system works, which i pointed out it is doing what it is supposed to do (and i understand WHY it is in place). The problem is it is incredibly limiting. "You're meant to be doing other things", but why does the same logic not apply to Extreme, Ultimate, or Unreal? Ultimate (on patch) and Unreal both have weekly lockouts but don't stop the player from jumping back in even after receiving their reward.



Neither point you made here applies...at all. They've already progressed through multiple fights in my example, and they don't get things "quicker". If you only need gear from 11 for example, you can still jump into 11. You just can't get anything from 9 or 10 that week. If you need gear from 9 and/or 10 still, you still have to clear those fights, which takes time.... So?

Cos you can trivially sell clears or really just boost people with 7 people + 1 buyer.

Instead of Savage, why not release a Savage+ version that is infinitely repeatable in week 8. Once you did your Savage for the week, you can either log off or do Savage+

You can put stuff like special challenges such as "never get hit by p10s turrets", "8 tanks" in Savage+ mode and these challenges refresh every 2 weeks or so. FFLogs will 100% log these. And then tune these fights to BiS gear level and make things hit harder. Rewards from Savage+ would be something like a unlocking a third materia slot on one piece of gear every time you complete 4 challenges (so 11 weeks to get to the next level of BiS). To make it infinitely replayable, FFLogs is there but you could also make an official leaderboard for Savage+ speeds. Top rankers get a title and some glams/mounts that require top ranking but will still be available to next raid tier's top rankers (like Feast t100 but each t100 can buy any of the previous t100 rewards), and consecutive top rankers will be top on the leaderboard but cede their rewards to the next in line.

If you actually want to do Savage because you want to help people then idk if there's any good fix.

This game is really unimaginative though and idk how someone can do Savage over and over again without some permutations

[TomsYoungerBro]

You just answered your own question - it is incredibly limiting - because it is supposed to be limiting. Keep people around longer for more sub time. If you can't help yourself from jumping back in to the same content, well, that's something you have to deal with. It's not something for the devs to change to suit that mentality better.

Yes, the purpose is to strictly limit rewards. It does not technically limit gameplay. Just the type of parties you can join are limited. You can't join a 2-chest re-clear, you don't want to join prog/clear parties requesting a 2-chest clear, etc. etc. This creates the issue OP pointed out as cleared players do not funnel back into learning groups because they aren't supposed to (based on both points I listed). You get punished for doing content you re-cleared out of order, and you punish others if you've already cleared that week.

they just don't want people jumping ahead, that's all.

But why is that a good design choice? Because the Devs "want" it doesn't make it good design lmao.

Cos you can trivially sell clears or really just boost people with 7 people + 1 buyer.

Thank you for explaining the system that (as I stated) is working as intended to limit rewards. The argument wasn't to attack the function of the system in question, but the flaws that make it not fun in my opinion.

If you actually want to do Savage because you want to help people then idk if there's any good fix.

And that is to the point of the OP. Learning parties fall off as the tier progresses because of said savage systems. I personally believe it makes it not fun because there is no flexibility. Want to PF re-clears that your static hasn't progged yet? Can't because you need to reclear previous fights with them. Friend wants help in PF getting clear/re-clear? Can't because already used it on static or elsewhere, etc. etc. Again, the system is working as it is intended, but it has its drawbacks.

[GaiusDrakon]

Yes, the purpose is to strictly limit rewards. It does not technically limit gameplay. Just the type of parties you can join are limited. You can't join a 2-chest re-clear, you don't want to join prog/clear parties requesting a 2-chest clear, etc. etc. This creates the issue OP pointed out as cleared players do not funnel back into learning groups because they aren't supposed to (based on both points I listed). You get punished for doing content you re-cleared out of order, and you punish others if you've already cleared that week.




But why is that a good design choice? Because the Devs "want" it doesn't make it good design lmao.



Thank you for explaining the system that (as I stated) is working as intended to limit rewards. The argument wasn't to attack the function of the system in question, but the flaws that make it not fun in my opinion.



And that is to the point of the OP. Learning parties fall off as the tier progresses because of said savage systems. I personally believe it makes it not fun because there is no flexibility. Want to PF re-clears that your static hasn't progged yet? Can't because you need to reclear previous fights with them. Friend wants help in PF getting clear/re-clear? Can't because already used it on static or elsewhere, etc. etc. Again, the system is working as it is intended, but it has its drawbacks.

Maybe SE can add a "rehearsal" mode where you have the exact same fight but you don't get any rewards and don't consume any lockout.

[Ransu]

Hardmode content kind of feels broken in FFXIV when it comes to savage. Every single design around it points to it being content with set groups of people involved, but instead it has turned more into a hodge podge of people with different schedules and commitment levels running together in PF. People run the content at the same point at the start, but depending on who people group with, how quickly they can get into groups, and how much time they put in, it always seems to come into a wave where some people get orphaned somewhere along the chain.

Welcome to MMO's? If you're not willing to join a static you're gonna be at the mercy of randoms in PF.

[Coatl]

1. The 2-chest system limits player engagement with the content
2. You cannot re-clear fights YOU HAVE CLEARED in any order

If savage had personalized loot instead of group loot this issue would be solved. It's been done by many other MMOs and It's just better imo. SE just doesn't care about the raiding community very much. Any update it gets seem like scraps when they could do so much more to help foster the community. People have been suggesting the very things you are for years, since ARR even.

[Atelier-Bagur]

If savage had personalized loot instead of group loot this issue would be solved. It's been done by many other MMOs and It's just better imo. SE just doesn't care about the raiding community very much. Any update it gets seem like scraps when they could do so much more to help foster the community. People have been suggesting the very things you are for years, since ARR even.

Those same MMOs also continue to have disastisfied raiders because personal loot.

So whether they have it or not, either way people will still not be happy

[Dzian]

Hardmode content kind of feels broken in FFXIV when it comes to savage. Every single design around it points to it being content with set groups of people involved

It's Actually designed around Raid Finder Groups. The idea being anyone can jump on the game and jump into a queue and go. No need for statics or dedicated groups / strict schedules. Just maximum accessibility.

And truthfully it works very well. All you need to do is look at the JP side and how they participate in high end content and often have significantly HIGHER participation and sucess levels than the NA because they use the Raid Finder and other game tools properly..

On the NA/EU side the problem is the playerbase. Too many lazy / self entitled / c***sure players expect to be carried and that mentality killed off the raid finder tool almost as quickly as soon as it was implemented way back with Sophia Ex.

Everything in this game is designed to be as accessible as possible and thats honestly great.. The two things that ruin it are. 1. The beleif that accessible means easy. And 2. The playerbase and there mentality / attitudes.. If players used the raid finder properly, then even the most casual timmy could log in of an evening and get some savage raiding done..

The icing on the cake that demonstrates this design is that on the JP side people raidfinder / PUG Ultimates. On the NA/EU side even the easiest of extreme trials often ends in disaster.

Exact same tools. The difference is how players use them.

It feels like content that is supposed to be a social experience for multiple people and to overcome challenges, but in reality it actually pushes people apart. The solutions SE implemented such as personal completion status impacting the loot others receive, having options to filter out people who have and have not completed it, and other tools all further segment the few people that do savage.

The entire games designed this way to push players into duty finder / raid finder. it discourages social connections and cooperation on so many levels.

You cant send / receive tells to talk with friends in an instance.
Savage loot punsihments cant help a friend if youve already cleared.
MSQ will stop you in your tracks and say "you cannot continue this quest because you are in a party" It's a bloomin MMO people want to play together. the story would be 10 times more fun if you could do it with friends.
No roulette bonuses for going in groups.
Even the free trial restricts communication making it difficult to make friends and connections.
Super strickt party sizes make it difficult to include all your friends. (personally i rememeber when 5 of us wanted to do potd 200 but couldnt because the max was 4.. or times where 7 of us have wanted to go do a mount farm but couldnt because it wouldnt let us in without a random pug 8th to mess up the loot plans.

It's an MMO and they want everyone to play solo and use df/rf

[ForteNightshade]

What you have explained is how the system works, which i pointed out it is doing what it is supposed to do (and i understand WHY it is in place). The problem is it is incredibly limiting. "You're meant to be doing other things", but why does the same logic not apply to Extreme, Ultimate, or Unreal? Ultimate (on patch) and Unreal both have weekly lockouts but don't stop the player from jumping back in even after receiving their reward.

Ultimate has a very different demographic and is considered such a massive step up difficulty wise that limiting the rewards doesn't matter. The issue for Savage is that if you didn't have some sort of restriction, it would always be better to run with people who have cleared. Say they reduced the penalty to only if three or more players have cleared do you lose a coffer. Now it's to your best advantage to always have two cleared players in your party. That way you're only rolling against five players instead of seven.

Neither point you made here applies...at all. They've already progressed through multiple fights in my example, and they don't get things "quicker". If you only need gear from 11 for example, you can still jump into 11. You just can't get anything from 9 or 10 that week. If you need gear from 9 and/or 10 still, you still have to clear those fights, which takes time.... So?

This is to prevent certain fights to die off. Look at P3 and P7 in the last two tiers. Neither would have seen almost any parties because the loot wasn't as valued, especially in the latter months when Twines weren't as big a deal. By forcing you to progress through each one, they're artificially keeping all four active. With that said, they still allow you to skip ahead should you join someone else's party. You just sacrifice your page for the week in doing so.

At the end of the day, both systems are in place to force longevity in the same way tomes do. If every QoL idea people have asked for were implemented, you could be finished gearing a whole character in less than a month, skip all the fights you don't need/want, limit how many people you have to roll against and then have zero reason to go back. Not exactly a good system for SE when this content is intended to last for months.