Your Opinion on the Current State of Job Identity/Balance in 6.4?

[Shurrikhan]

combine it with hitboxes so big to the point where melee dont have to disengage from the boss therefore have 0 risk because you can 100% uptime leads to why melee are so strong this expansion

Well that and the simple fact that their damage wasn't nerfed despite that reduced vulnerability. Which, admittedly, makes some sense, since no one likes to have their throughput ceiling reduced just because their skill ceiling was, especially given that... no one asked for that reduction to skill ceiling.

[Silver-Strider]

I kind of have to disagree here, Silver.

This is a long winded way of saying, we should just return to SB times of content design (Hopefully just not with the same Lily System of the time). That isn't to say that SB was the best in term of job design because there was still a lot of jank but it was probably the most agreeable middle ground in terms of Healer Gameplay by a mile (again, discounting the Lily system at the time). Had nothing regarding healer but the Lily System been changed going into ShB, I'd argue that the game would have been as close to perfect as it would have gotten but sadly, the Devs decided that Healers needed to be lobotomized and Tanks needed more steroids because they could still feel pain, hence where we're at today. They've doubled down on the idiocy of their design philosophy that a GCD healer simply has no place in this game anymore, not with the game as it currently exists and I doubt the Devs will correct their course after sticking their heels in the ground for so long now.

[Shurrikhan]

While I roughly agree with this...

we should just return to SB times of content design

...that actually has very little to do with this...

a GCD healer simply has no place in this game anymore

The arguments against one are essentially long-winded ways of saying, "if underpowered, it'd be underpowered."

A healer whose kit can and should avoid and all GCD heals not augmented by powerful CDs is effectively just pre-taxed for the potency of those CDs (both those augmenting GCDs and those directly providing sustain [be that in percentile or flat mitigation or restoration]). A healer who has little to no CD-based value, then, needs only enough extra ppm averaged across its GCDs to make up for that. That's it.

Just look at any of the [DPS] or [Combined HPS+DPS] graphs of various healers or healer-pairs as HPS requirements increase. The GCD healer will simply have a higher max HPS and, separately, DPS, though with no advantage to combined HPS+DPS and with nearly the whole of its tradeoff being near-linear, instead of that portion starting only after the healer in question has consumed all their "free" resources.

It's fine. At worst, it invites a bit of chadding during burst windows, since their offensive ppgcd would be significantly higher than healers whose offensive ceilings have been pre-taxed to support all that "free" healing.

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Sidenote:
If they'd actually just reiterated on Stormblood Secret of the Lilies to where it wasn't left in its crap nascent state... I think it'd likely be preferable to the Shadowbringers+ design, since it allowed you to use resources generated from any number of GCD heals (not CD-gated) towards any form of oGCD output (be it healing, mitigation, or double-purpose). It'd just need an option or two more among offensive oGCDs for consuming the (greatly, greatly increased) ability-acceleration on offensive potency recovery, especially if healing requirements were to remain lighter than they were in Stormblood/Heavensward.

Should it have used a more granular system, such as potency itself just building up available CDR, with zero RNG attached? Absolutely. But that would also literally be simpler than what they went with, and far more button-effective and versatile than the ShB SotL system that replaced it.

[Renathras]

While I roughly agree with this...

we should just return to SB times of content design

...that actually has very little to do with this...

SB WHM was pretty bad. SCH was bad at first but got better after that initial softness. AST's cards were weird after some of the changes, but...functional.

But WHM was not. Struggled the whole expansion, the mechanics didn't even make sense, and especially the early SB iteration of Lilies where you had a CHANCE - not guarantee, CHANCE - to proc them off Cure heals. It was like WORSE Freecure. Or was that Plenary? Because it was horribad initially, too. For all the complaints of Aero 3, I will never understand anyone that says they think SB WHM was better than ShB or EW WHM, because SB WHM was the absolute worst iteration of a Healer Job in this game's entire history. And when little healing was needed, SB WHM was actually more Stonespammy! Bit sad, but ShB WHM should have been introduced in SB. Who knows, maybe they wouldn't have even had to change the overall Healer paradigm had that happened. But here we are.

Damn, that's very generous definition of what is and isn't insult

Not really, it's pretty commonly used. But it's whatever. At this point you're just trying to wage a feud for god only knows what reason, derailing any thread you can to get your way. If you want to act like this, that's up to you, but I'm not going to help you.

Ngl, though, that is a pretty badass picture. Maybe next time I'll wear the Dwarven helmet. Could be pretty cool.

I will be taking this.

As will I. Not everyday someone who hates you accidentally messes up and makes something badass for you in spite of themselves.

EDIT:

And I guess I'll copy this here for posterity.

You can engage in this feud if you want, but I'm going to try and stay above it. If I respond, it will continue to be in HBs to not detract from ACTUAL discussions going on, and it may be me just posting the same thing over and over. You can either decide to act like a mature person, or you can keep doing...whatever this is, but it's beneath the rest of us.

Oh, but truly:

Thank you for the picture, btw. I love it.

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Oh, you're still going, I see?

As I told you, I'm not interested in helping you derail threads with your personal vendetta against me. You'll have to find someone else. I'll spell this out exactly once for you:

Slidecasting is:

1) When the cast time of an action is less than the GCD, allowing you free movement from before the spell ends until the GCD has completed and you can take another action. You can ARGUE if you want that that's both slidecasting AND free movement in the rest of the GCD (similar to movement after an Instant cast), if you want, but it includes the slidecast as part of that time and the entire window is used for movement. Recall the context of the conversation was about if GCD classes can function in the current movement heavy environment, and I was pointing out how much movement is available even with GCD casts and especially with 1.5 and 2 sec GCD casts of most heals. (Of course, as you say, you don't KNOW the context because you butted into a conversation in-progress to take a side, not bothering to understand what you were wading into and then going on SEVERAL unhinged rants and a now two day crusade against a poster for your own failure of understanding.)

2) ALL SPELLS (whether less than the GCD or greater) have around a 0.5 sec window they can ALSO do this in.

3) Spells with a cast time longer than the GCD typically don't allow much room for movement.
NOTE: One I was mistaken on here, though, is Slipstream, as while it DOES have a lengthy cast time of 3.0 sec, it has a quirk where it extends the recast time to 3.5, meaning it's more akin to casting a 2.0 sec cast in a 2.5 sec GCD. But it's kind of a weird/unique case.

4) BLM main spells take up the entire GCD, leaving them "a very narrow slidecast window"; only the 0.5 sec, which is "much smaller" than the movement allowed by WHM's 1.5 or 2.0 sec casts..

.

Do you get it now? You've been harassing me over you not being able to understand a person talking about a series of things. The fact I note spells with cast times have the window AND the BLM can do it even with spell casts equal to the GCD shows that your "B-b-but REN SAID that if you have a cast that isn't LESS THAN THE GCD you CANNOT SLIDECAST!!!" is a full on lie. Because, interestingly, that statement never appears in the post or the quote. Somewhere else in the thread I said something else, but the quote you want to hang your hat on has me no where saying "Slidecasting is ONLY spells that are less than the GCD".

What DOES appear in the post? Me saying ALL SPELLS with cast times have around 0.5 sec window to slidecast. Meaning I directly stated that spells with cast times longer than the GCD have slidecast windows.

Do you get it now? You've been harassing me and demanding I "admit I was wrong" all this time over your own inability to read and understand a post, and your fervent desire to "prove me wrong" over just asking me "Did you mean THIS or THIS?"

And the reason I didn't put in the first part is because it was already in the part he quoted, so it seemed redundant.

"You can still slidecast with spells that have cast time longer than recast" IS LITERALLY WHAT I SAID WHEN I SAID ALL SPELLS AS THAT INCLUDES SPELLS WITH CAST TIMES LONGER THAN THE GCD.

Now, you can keep up your feud or not, I just don't care, but I'm not going to bother trying to correct you more or engage in your petty tit-for-tat indulgence ranting.

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EDIT2: Nested quote fix

[Silver-Strider]

But WHM was not. Struggled the whole expansion, the mechanics didn't even make sense, and especially the early SB iteration of Lilies where you had a CHANCE - not guarantee, CHANCE - to proc them off Cure heals. It was like WORSE Freecure. Or was that Plenary? Because it was horribad initially, too. For all the complaints of Aero 3, I will never understand anyone that says they think SB WHM was better than ShB or EW WHM, because SB WHM was the absolute worst iteration of a Healer Job in this game's entire history. And when little healing was needed, SB WHM was actually more Stonespammy! Bit sad, but ShB WHM should have been introduced in SB. Who knows, maybe they wouldn't have even had to change the overall Healer paradigm had that happened. But here we are.

Easy, you could ignore the entire Lily system and play more or less exactly like HW WHM, just without MP issues thanks to Thin Air. Aero 2 and 3 having different durations also kept the Stonespam from becoming monotonous.
My chief complaints in SB for WHM was the removal of Protect and Stoneskin, Cleric Stance losing all functionality for a cheap 5% buff and Divine Seal becoming a Role Action. Making Esuna a role action was also annoying because if you got an instance that required Esuna, you'd have to move around something just to slot it in and heaven forbid you get a Healer that was too lazy or forgetful to do so (ExDeath's opening Doom killed me numerous times back then because neither healer would have it slotted whenever I played DPS).

Despite all that though, I would gladly go back to that time if for no other reason than Aero 3.

[Renathras]

Easy, you could ignore the entire Lily system and play more or less exactly like HW WHM, just without MP issues thanks to Thin Air. Aero 2 and 3 having different durations also kept the Stonespam from becoming monotonous.
My chief complaints in SB for WHM was the removal of Protect and Stoneskin, Cleric Stance losing all functionality for a cheap 5% buff and Divine Seal becoming a Role Action. Making Esuna a role action was also annoying because if you got an instance that required Esuna, you'd have to move around something just to slot it in and heaven forbid you get a Healer that was too lazy or forgetful to do so (ExDeath's opening Doom killed me numerous times back then because neither healer would have it slotted whenever I played DPS).

Despite all that though, I would gladly go back to that time if for no other reason than Aero 3.

No no, I mean you had about the same number of casts in your rotation as now, when no major healing was needed.

In practice, SB WHM cast Aero 2 3.333... times per minute and Aero 3 2.5 times per minute. This is a total of 5.833... GCD casts per minute that weren't Stone IV.
In practice, EW WHM casts Dia 2 times per minute, 3 Afflatus (Solace/Rapture) per minute, and 1 Afflatus Misery per minute. This is a total of 6 GCD casts per minute that aren't Glare III.

So SB WHM actually cast more Stone per minute on average than ShB/EW WHM did WHEN healing was taken care of.

The main distinction comes down to when some healing is needed, ShB/EW takes care of it organically as part of the rotation (chiefly with Rapture + oGCDs) while SB WHM might have devoted a few additional GCDs of Medica 2 or Cure 3 (though it did have Assize and Asylum and such back then, too). So for no healing and light healing (that oGCDs can cover), EW WHM is more non-Glarespam than SB WHM was. For periods of heavy healing, they're also around the same since both would have to dig into GCD heals. But for periods of moderate healing that exceeded oGCD healing capacity but didn't get to the point of necessitating a LOT of GCD heals, that's where SB WHM might have been casting a few more GCDs of non-Stone per min to EW's WHM's non-Glare.

On average, though, EW WHM is around equal in number of Glare casts per minute to SB WHM with Stone.

I think this is something a lot of people forget. People think about HW WHM when they think of it doing a lot more, as they'd be right - because it had an additional DoT with a pretty short duration that, itself, matched Afflatus casts. I think HW WHM had something like 9 non-Stone casts per minute in the no healing situation. And its oGCD kit was what it is now (Assize, Asylum, Tetra, Benediction; it lacked Benison, I suppose?), so around equal there, though I think some CDs might have been different, but I'm honestly not certain of that... But the point being that it had to use more GCDs on healing, breaking up the Stonespam even more.

But compared to StormBlood, since that's often touted as the high water mark for healer design, current WHM has about the same nukespam once fights are down to "no GCD healing required".

What I'd like to check on is just how much GCD healing WAS required back then by the average Savage WHM, since that'd really be the distinction factor.

EDIT2:

And yes, I'd love to check on the forbidden site. But stuff that old (e.g. Chaos/Omega) has been archived, so I can't get it to show a nice detailed fight breakdown without a sub or something. That said, I had to go to the 63rd clear to find the FIRST WHM. All the other parties were AST/SCH.

[Shurrikhan]

SB WHM was pretty bad. SCH was bad at first but got better after that initial softness. AST's cards were weird after some of the changes, but...functional.

The heck does any of this have to do with what you quoted? We're discussing gameplay and overarching design philosophies, not the polish of this or that particular mechanic.

Spear being only about half the value of Balance, for instance, wouldn't have to be copied over verbatim. What would distinguish it from

SCH lacking any real uses for its Fairy Gauge, likewise, wouldn't have to remain the case; what differentiates it would be that it'd have more going on in downtime and would see more, even if sparing, use of GCD heals.

Etc., etc.

For all the complaints of Aero 3, I will never understand anyone that says they think SB WHM was better than ShB or EW WHM, because SB WHM was the absolute worst iteration of a Healer Job in this game's entire history.

Because its new mechanic and the job as a whole was undertuned and initially Benison randomly required a Lily for no reason than to pretend that SotL wasn't under a fifth the strength it likely should have been at (and likely needed its functionality adjusted to allow the WHM to accelerate its next use of abilities, not just its next-next use thereof).

How does that have anything to do with a higher portion of GCD healing with higher ppgcd on attacks and heals vs. a higher portion of 'free' healing with lower ppgcd on attacks and heals?

[Raikai]

While I agree the 2 minutes burst window is definitely hampering design, I don't think it is the only offender just the biggest offender.

I would say also it's the 'gate offender', because there's no way to make jobs more interesting beyond their obligatory job gimmick if it remains intact.

Bet if it lingers through 7.0, the job recipe being:

[Shurrikhan]

the job recipe being:

Hey now. We can use 20|40 recast times, too!

And we can have up to 3 combos, if you're a DPS, even if beneath the surface they're --outside of, say, BLM/MNK-- just a more button-bloated way to basically create a filler button opposite a per-21|24|30s button.

And, and, and... maybe even a [waste of a] second gauge (Darkside, Fairy Gauge, etc.)!

/thinking face

[Deo14]

Not really, it's pretty commonly used. But it's whatever. At this point you're just trying to wage a feud for god only knows what reason, derailing any thread you can to get your way. If you want to act like this, that's up to you, but I'm not going to help you.
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As I told you, I'm not interested in helping you derail threads with your personal vendetta against me. You'll have to find someone else. I'll spell this out exactly once for you:

Derailing by focusing on the main part of argument, of course. Check that thread and re-read it.

Ngl, though, that is a pretty badass picture. Maybe next time I'll wear the Dwarven helmet. Could be pretty cool.
Thank you for the picture, btw. I love it.

Thanks, I wanted to farm some Golbez yesterday, but ended up making that masterpiece instead.

You can engage in this feud if you want, but I'm going to try and stay above it. If I respond, it will continue to be in HBs to not detract from ACTUAL discussions going on, and it may be me just posting the same thing over and over. You can either decide to act like a mature person, or you can keep doing...whatever this is, but it's beneath the rest of us.

Happy to hear that, if only I could be as mature as you! But you can go ahead and continue your discussions with your mouth moving and your ears plugged as always.

Slidecasting is:
...

Now you put in the main part of your comment, finally! No more omitting context, what an upgrade!

But yeah, my point still stands, you keep at this point quadruple downing on your "When the cast time of an action is less than the GCD", which was majority of the slidecasting argument. Sure it's nitpick, it's just somewhat incorrect definition, so why won't you just admit that and move on? Too big ego to admit you were ever wrong? All you had to do was admit your mistake after first person called you out.

Do you get it now? You've been harassing me over you not being able to understand a person talking about a series of things. The fact I note spells with cast times have the window AND the BLM can do it even with spell casts equal to the GCD shows that your "B-b-but REN SAID that if you have a cast that isn't LESS THAN THE GCD you CANNOT SLIDECAST!!!" is a full on lie. Because, interestingly, that statement never appears in the post or the quote. Somewhere else in the thread I said something else, but the quote you want to hang your hat on has me no where saying "Slidecasting is ONLY spells that are less than the GCD".

Implying I harrass you for calling you out? You always respond back to me, and so do I. If you don't want me to ""harrass"" you, stop responding, and everyone will be happy they won't need to read our bullshits.

"B-b-but REN SAID that if you have a cast that isn't LESS THAN THE GCD you CANNOT SLIDECAST!!!"

Slidecasting is when the cast time of an action is less than the GCD

So are we supposed to cherry pick the right points from your comments? You had incorrect and conflicting info in them, you fucked up, deal with it.

What DOES appear in the post? Me saying ALL SPELLS with cast times have around 0.5 sec window to slidecast. Meaning I directly stated that spells with cast times longer than the GCD have slidecast windows.
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Do you get it now? You've been harassing me and demanding I "admit I was wrong" all this time over your own inability to read and understand a post, and your fervent desire to "prove me wrong" over just asking me "Did you mean THIS or THIS?"
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"You can still slidecast with spells that have cast time longer than recast" IS LITERALLY WHAT I SAID WHEN I SAID ALL SPELLS AS THAT INCLUDES SPELLS WITH CAST TIMES LONGER THAN THE GCD.

Yes, you said 2 conflicting things, so of course it would be nice to clarify what you meant, but instead you're doubling down and acted like both are correct. It's really dumb nitpick of definition, I agree with that, but none of that would escalate like it did if you just corrected yourself, but instead you went on yet another rant and called everyone names.

And the reason I didn't put in the first part is because it was already in the part he quoted, so it seemed redundant.

Of course. Obviously. Surely. Main part of the argument is very redundant, right?

Now, you can keep up your feud or not, I just don't care, but I'm not going to bother trying to correct you more or engage in your petty tit-for-tat indulgence ranting.
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[few paragraphs higher:]
You can engage in this feud if you want, but I'm going to try and stay above it. If I respond, it will continue [rest omitted]

At start of this very message you said you will keep engaging with me, but now you won't ?! What the fuck is wrong with you and your conflicting info? Did you mean THIS or THIS? This is the problem, are you gonna double down on this too and engage me but claim you don't or what? Are you going to make another rant where you will call everyone names just because of this? Have you not learned anything?