What is Dark knight for now that War just does everything better?

[Saraide]

I'm highlighting why that is not a valid argument. I can use even larger exaggerations to get my point across if you want to?
It still stands. Why do we have a job that does everything better than another? Is War supposed to be a Drk upgrade? Or?

Yes please do use even more extreme exaggerations.

[GoatOfWar]

Yes please do use even more extreme exaggerations.

Will do once you present me with counter arguments instead of pointless ridicule.

[Saraide]

Will do once you present me with counter arguments instead of pointless ridicule.

The differences are not big enough to be actually relevant yet you are having a meltdown before you even started.

[fulminating]

The differences are not big enough to be actually relevant yet you are having a meltdown before you even started.

I don’t remember seeing a post from them where they’re not whinging about it.

[GoatOfWar]

I don’t remember seeing a post from them where they’re not whinging about it.

Don't click on the thread if it bothers you?

[GoatOfWar]

The differences are not big enough to be actually relevant yet you are having a meltdown before you even started.

I don't know if i'd call it a meltdown, i'm merely voicing concern that my job's existence is invalidated by another that does everything better. The tanks play so similar there isn't really any reason not to play War instead, and i don't want to. Which i don't think is unreasonable at all.

[Renathras]

I'm highlighting why that is not a valid argument. I can use even larger exaggerations to get my point across if you want to?
It still stands. Why do we have a job that does everything better than another? Is War supposed to be a Drk upgrade? Or?

Will do once you present me with counter arguments instead of pointless ridicule.

I mean, AST arguably IS better than WHM in every way, yet tons of people play WHM still.

DRK has been eating pretty good this whole expansion, unlike poor PLD. WAR has just been ridiculous this whole expansion, but behind in damage as well. It probably got buffed too much, but DRK and GNB really were ahead. This last tier was the DRK tier. The optimal party comp was DRK + X where X was either GNB or WAR, depending on the content. Now DRK and PLD are equal, GNB slightly ahead, and WAR is just stupidly bonkers.

...but none of that matters unless you're going for week 1 clears OR doing Ultimates - and in Ultimates, DRK is the best because it's not penalized for downtime like the other Tanks are.

So no, WAR does not "do everything better" than DRK. It does some things better. While WAR is pretty bonkers right now, DRK is hardly worthless. "But I need a healer and can't solo 4 mans!!" And? Tanks SHOULDN'T be soloing 4 mans. That WAR can is because of how stupidly OP tank regen is right now, not something to shoot for with all other Tanks.

In high end content, DRK has an extra mitigation over the other Tanks and some powerful abilities when used well. Some people also find WAR boring to the point of falling asleep and enjoy DRK's rotation, burst, or aesthetic better. WAR's short CD regen isn't OP with just a single target like it is in AOE situations. DRK actually benefits during downtime since its base resource regenerates while WAR's Rage does not (nor do GNB's charges) making DRK better at controlled damage/burst fights or fights with lots of downtime while mechanics resolve, which is why DRK is the go-to for the current tier of Ultimates.

That enough counter arguments for ya?

If you like DRK and are decent at it, you aren't going to have trouble finding groups.

EDIT:

The button input for DRK is way more than the input for WAR is, and that alone to me should be enough of a reason to see DRK have better damage. More effort being put in should result in more results naturally.

I see this argument a lot (for all roles) BUT IT CANNOT WORK: The reason is that FFXIV's combat system is too rigid. The only thing that matters is damage and (rarely) Raises. Everyone has the same amount of mitigation within the Tank role (and most roles, for that matter, are no more than 1 apart), but there's no other kind of utility that matters. Either you do damage or you don't. And if you do less damage, encounters don't work because either the Job that does the most damage in a role is ALWAYS picked or, if the Enrage is so lax the low end Job can clear it fine, then the top end Job is STILL always picked because you can skip mechanics.

Damage cannot be the distinguishing factor in FFXIV because the combat system is too rigid. Best you can ask for is more utility buttons, and you may get the monkey's paw fingers to curl if you do that.

People argue this all the time across all the roles, but what we see is if a Job does 2% damage less, it's "literally unplayable" for a tier. So "I do more work I should do more damage" is not, and never will be, allowed unless FFXIV completely revamps the way they do encounters. This isn't WoW where some classes can literally be 20% less damage than others - and they aren't taken then, mind you, but the damage disparities are sometimes ridiculously huge.

[Shurrikhan]

Damage cannot be the distinguishing factor in FFXIV because the combat system is too rigid. Best you can ask for is more utility buttons, and you may get the monkey's paw fingers to curl if you do that.

People argue this all the time across all the roles, but what we see is if a Job does 2% damage less, it's "literally unplayable" for a tier. So "I do more work I should do more damage" is not, and never will be, allowed unless FFXIV completely revamps the way they do encounters. This isn't WoW where some classes can literally be 20% less damage than others - and they aren't taken then, mind you, but the damage disparities are sometimes ridiculously huge.

Except, what you're looking at under those dps disparities, however minute they may be, already accounts for that effective disparity in difficulty/effort unless one looks only at potency maps, not actual logs.

Honestly, a good mark of balance across jobs of differing difficulty is just that they swap ranks as percentile / player quality increases. An easier job like WAR should perhaps overperform something like DRK or GNB at lower percentiles, so long as it doesn't perform better than them also at the high end.

The problem right now: They don't. The only swap is between WAR and DRK, and happens only at the 80th percentile.

DRK, despite having the lowest sustain of any tank, also has the second lowest aDPS and the lowest rDPS (not that it particular matters) at all ranks. WAR, despite having the highest sustain of any tank, has the highest aDPS until the 80th percentile, at which point it's overtaken by GNB... who also has far more total sustain (mitigation + healing) than DRK.

Meanwhile, WAR brings a 29% more sustain than the top DPS (GNB), but only 0.5% less aDPS, and brings 3% more aDPS than DRK despite also bringing almost 40% more total healing+absorption. This... despite being more than arguably the simplest of tanks.

That... is a balance issue.

[fulminating]

That... is a balance issue.

Nah it’s drk being killed in shadowbringers for no discernible reason. And you’re not seriously telling me that dark knight is substantially more difficult than warrior?

Also aurora vs equilibrium. Equilibrium heals for just under both charges, but can’t be placed on others.
Thrill vs camo: thrill only adds hp which is no use if the attack hits for more than 110% of your hp, which camo would let you live through.
Bw vs hoc: hoc doesn’t need a target for its healing component. Bw/nf probably shouldn’t have the yellow hp shield tacked on and should go back to being however many% of damage dealt.

[Shurrikhan]

And you’re not seriously telling me that dark knight is substantially more difficult than warrior?

Substantially? That depends on where you draw that line. I'd say noticeably but not significantly.

But as WAR's doing 3% more DPS AND almost 40% more sustain... and yet is not significantly harder than DRK (by nearly any omni-tank's accounts, is easier, to the point WAR outperforms GNB until the 80th+ percentiles for simple ease of performance)... yeah, that seems a balance issue.

The recent WAR buffs were slightly excessive. That seems a very reasonable conclusion.

Also aurora vs equilibrium. Equilibrium heals for just under both charges, but can’t be placed on others.

Oh no... I guess my WAR will just have to stick to the 1600 cure-potency + 400 shield-potency and 10% external mitigation per 25 seconds (1100 more cure+shield potency in exchange for 5% less miti compared to HoC) for keeping others up?

Bw/nf probably shouldn’t have the yellow hp shield tacked on and should go back to being however many% of damage dealt.

Agreed.