Tank balance and what CBU3 wants to do with job balance

[RyuDragnier]

Anyway, WAR is too strong, GNB is probably okay but just a bit strong, PLD is probably where it should be, and DRK is probably where it should be.

I'd say you're wrong here partially. WAR is definitely too strong, GNB is where it should be, PLD is a bit too strong, and DRK is too weak, when it comes to overall sustain. Remember, while TBN can help you every 15s...what do you have outside of that for sustain in the meantime? Absolutely nothing.

Part of the reason why I even suggest a bloodbath-ish heal on Oblation is simply because it's balanced by its timer. It takes 1 minute for a charge to come back. WAR's Bloodwhetting is OP because it can happen every 25s. Something like that on a 1 minute cooldown however, is not busted simply because it can only help you for 10s out of 60s, which is a LOT of time for something to go wrong.

[Renathras]

...

I mean overall.

PLD is not "too strong". PLD is weaker than GNB, so if GNB is "where it should be", then PLD can't be "a bit too strong". DRK seems to be clearing content fine as far as I can tell. And you do have self-healing from your 1-2-3 rotation and Abyssal drain once per minute. How's that less than PLD?

DRK

Assumptions:

1) Tank health ~100,000.
2) TBN used on CD (once every 15 sec/4x per minute) and fully absorbed
1 + 2) TNB "heals" for ~25,000 each, or ~100,000 per minute.
3) 100 Tank Potency in ~630 gear is worth ~2,000 healing (on PLD, my 1,000 Potency Clemency heals for ~20k, and on GNB my 900 Potency Heart of Corundum Excog heals for ~18k)
4) 1x Abyssal Drain per minute grants 200 Potency, or 4,000 health.
5) Each 1-2-3 combo results in a 300 Potency, or 6,000 heath heal on completion.
6) ~2.5sec GCD, meaning one full combo requires 7.5 sec.
7) 60 sec / 7.5 sec = 8 full 1-2-3 combos per minute (for the sake of simplicity, no other GCDs, we can factor those in after we're done).
5 + 6 +7) The expected value of healing from 8 1-2-3 combos per minute should be 48,000 health.

Total healing done by DRK per minute (including TBN as "healing"): ~152,000
NOTE: In practice, it will generally be around 6,000 less than this, since mechanics and mistakes happen, and you will have several Bloodspillers mixed in there. That should get it down around ~146,000. This is also NOT counting Living Dead, though, which does supply healing as well if used, which is 1,500 potency/30,000 health per hit, for four hits, or around 120,000 total over the 10 seconds (if you have a slightly faster than 2.5 sec GCD), but also can only be used once every 5 minutes. That would be 24,000 per minute if we averaged it...but given the way invulns are used, it seems just wrong to count it that way. Not to mention the other invulns don't heal, so wouldn't be counted, but DO mitigate, effectively adding to the Tank's eHP. So I'm not going to count it, just noting that it exists.

PLD

1) Tank health ~100,000.
2) 100 Tank Potency in ~630 gear is worth ~2,000 healing (on PLD, my 1,000 Potency Clemency heals for ~20k, and on GNB my 900 Potency Heart of Corundum Excog heals for ~18k)
3) Clemency ITSELF isn't used (we'll add it in later) in the standard rotation.
4) ~2 sec autoattack speed (50 Oath Gauge every ~20 sec, or ~3 Holy Shelltrons per minute)
5) Holy Shelltron heals for 250 potency over 12 sec, or 4 ticks for a total of 1,000 potency, ~20k health (same as a Clemency would)
4 + 5) Holy Shelltron is expected to heal for around 60,000 health per minute.
5) Each 1-2-3-4-4-4-5 combo results in a 400 Potency, or 8,000 heath heal on completion from Holy Spirit (or Circle, same potency).
5b) Note in AOE, this is every 3 GCDs due to the 1-2-Holy Circle.
6) ~2.5sec GCD, meaning one full combo requires 17.5 sec.
7a) 60 sec / 17.5 sec = 3.4 full 1-2-3-4-4-4-5 combos per minute - This is assuming no Confetti combo
7b) 47.5 sec / 17.5 sec = 2.7 full 1-2-3-4-4-4-5 combos per minute - This is assuming one Confetti combo (10 sec of 4x 2.5 sec recasts) + Goring Blade (1x 2.5 sec)
7c) We will be using the 7b number, since the Confetti combo heals for a 400 Potency per hit, or 1,600 total, which is more than one extra combo would (e.g. makes the numbers for PLD higher, so not giving it an unfair handicap)
5 + 6 + 7) Healing from the 1-2-3-4-4-4-5 combo should be expected to be 2.7 x 8,000 = 21,600 per minute, ON AVERAGE.
8) 1 full Confetti combo per minute for 4x 2.5 sec recast weaponskills and a total of 1,600 Potency, or ~32,000 health healed.
9) Divine Veil, on a 90 sec CD (0.66 per minute or 2 per 3 minutes) grants a 10% HP shield. Assuming full absorption, that should be ~10,000 health (for the PLD) per 90 sec, or 6,667 health per minute.

Total healing done by PLD per minute (no Clemency): ~120,267
NOTE: Clemency can be cast up to 5x in quick succession (~100,000 healing itself) at the cost of 5 GCDs, but note that doing so would cause shifting the Confetior combo and not allow some Holy Spirit casts. In other words, it can be used for burst healing, but COMPLETELY screws your rotation and damage and burst alignment if you do it more than ~2 times in a row. And in any case, is not part of the standard rotation. This is a theoretical maximum assuming Ether shenanegans of around 220,000, but that should be considered an extreme case upper bound in very specific situations only, and it probably isn't even that; I'm not doing a test right now, but I'd wager in combat MP regen is low enough that would cut into other parts of the kit's healing, like Holy Spirits and Confetti combo steps.

GNB

1) Tank health ~100,000.
2) 100 Tank Potency in ~630 gear is worth ~2,000 healing (on PLD, my 1,000 Potency Clemency heals for ~20k, and on GNB my 900 Potency Heart of Corundum Excog heals for ~18k)
3) Heart of Corundum used on CD (once every 25 sec/2.4x per minute)
2 + 3) HoC heals for ~18,000 each, or ~43,200 per minute.
4) Aurora used on CD (1x per minute) for 200 Potency per tick over 18 sec, 6 ticks, or 1,200 total potency. Note that it can hold 2 charges, but only generates at a rate of 1 per minute.
2 + 4) Aurora heals for ~24,000 per minute.
5a) Each 1-2-3 combo results in a 200 Potency, or 4,000 heath heal plus a 200 Potency, or 4,000 health barrier, on the second step; a total of 8,000.
5b) Assuming the shields are fully absorbed (and in practice, they always will be).
6) ~2.5sec GCD, meaning one full combo requires 7.5 sec. Going to assume people aren't clipping their combo and just doing 1-2 over and over, as that would be a big DPS loss and not generate Cartridges.
7) 60 sec / 7.5 sec = 8 full 1-2-3 combos per minute (for the sake of simplicity, no other GCDs, we can factor those in after we're done, but there will be).
5 + 6 + 7) The expected value of healing from 8 1-2-3 combos per minute should be 64,000 health.

Total healing done by GNB per minute (including shielding as "healing"): ~131,200
NOTE: GNB uses 1x GCD per minute on Double Down, 1x for Sonic Break, 6x for Gnashing Fang combos (~2 per minute), and generally at least 1x Burst Strike in there somewhere, or 3x during every 2 min Combo. On average, this is 10x GCDs per minute, or 25 seconds, which would result in 3 LESS 1-2-3 combos. I feel this is important enough to give a second total in this case: ~107,200 (so -~24,000 from 3 less 8,000 1-2-3 combos)

WAR

1) Tank health ~100,000.
2) 100 Tank Potency in ~630 gear is worth ~2,000 healing (on PLD, my 1,000 Potency Clemency heals for ~20k, and on GNB my 900 Potency Heart of Corundum Excog heals for ~18k)
3) Bloodwhetting used on CD (once every 25 sec/2.4x per minute)
4) Bloodwhetting heals for 400 Potency for each Weaponskill, and lasting 8 seconds, means ~3 Weaponskills, 1,200 potency x2.4, or ~57,600 health per minute.
5) Equilibrium used on CD (1x per minute) for 1,200 initial Potency plus 200 Potency per tick over 15 sec, 5 ticks, or 1,000 total potency, for 2,400 total potency.
2 + 5) Equilibrium heals for ~48,000 per minute. (2x what Aurora does)
6a) Each 1-2-3 combo results in a 250 Potency, or 5,000 heath heal.
6b) Note that once per 30 sec (or 2x per min), the combo must shift to the -4 Storm's Eye to maintain the Surging Tempest buff.
7) ~2.5sec GCD, meaning one full combo requires 7.5 sec.
8) 60 sec / 7.5 sec = 8 full 1-2-3 combos per minute.
6b + 8 = 9) Given 6b and 8, this means 6 Storm's Path combos and 2 Storm's Eye combos per minute...but Fell Cleave...this is odd to calculate because Beast Gauge, but should be something like 1 Primal Rend + ~5(?) FC's per minute.
6 + 7 + 8 + 9) The expected value of healing from 4x Storm's Path 1-2-3 combos (the other time is two Storm's Eye combos and ~6 GCDs from Rend and FC, maybe?), per minute should be 20,000 health.
10a) Aaaand let's not forget Shake it Off.
10b) If not buffed, it's 15% of max health shield (assuming full absorption), or ~15,000 health for the Tank (ignoring party members).
10c) If completely buffed, it's 21% (Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, and Bloodwhetting), or ~21,000 health for the Tank.
10d) But wait...there's MORE! Shake now has a 100 Potency regen over 15 seconds, so 5 ticks for 500 Potency...plus a direct cure of 300 Potency for a total of 800 Potency or 16,000 health directly healed.
10e) Note this is a 90 sec CD, so will undergo a 2/3 multiplier here to get an average.
10f) So the low end is ~20,667 total healing and shielding, and the high end ~24,667.

PHEW!

Total healing done by WAR per minute (including shielding as "healing"): ~146,267 low, ~150,267 high

.

I may have messed up any number of things anywhere, or have some poor assumptions that should be tweaked, but this should give a VERY general ballpark of the self-sustain healing of each Tank. Note that this DOES NOT factor in eHP ("effective Health Points") by mitigation abilities, as not all the Tank mitigations are the same. A full analysis would need to consider those. But in just "how much it heals itself" (including shields), this is about what each should be pulling per minute. Give or take.

I'm not meaning to shortchange or overestimate anyone, just I haven't seen anyone do this and decided to put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) and get some actual raw numbers so I can at least talk about it PASSINGLY intelligently - and by that, I mean actual numbers instead of handwaves.

Please do point out to me any errors you might see, since I do want to have an informed position, which requires knowing if anything isn't right.

Summary of the numbers:

Total healing done by DRK per minute (including TBN as "healing"): ~152,000 (realistically ~146,000 given some Bloodspiller use)
Total healing done by PLD per minute (no Clemency): ~120,267 (somewhere around 180,000 to 220,000 if using LOTS of Clemency)
Total healing done by GNB per minute (including shielding as "healing"): ~131,200 (realistically ~107,200 since the 131k requires not using any GCDs other than 1-2-3 combo)
Total healing done by WAR per minute (including shielding as "healing"): ~146,267 low, ~150,267 high (a bit lower than this if you use more than 5 Fell Cleaves in a given minute)

And do note that these are all normalized to 1 min, but some of these abilities are 90 sec or 2 min things, we're just averaging them into per minute to make them directly apples-to-apples comparable across a protracted (longer than 3 minute) fight.

So, given all of this, if these numbers are AT ALL accurate, DRK has the greatest number of healing + shielding of all the Tanks unless PLD is going heavy into Clemency.

Note that this is STRICTLY talking about the Tank's own self-sustain, using these abilities on themselves. It's not counting things like Shake/Veil used on party members, TBN used on party members, Clemency used on party members (does 50% more healing total since it does a 50% heal on the PLD when used on a target other than oneself), etc etc etc. This is JUST the Tank using all their abilities on themselves to see what their expected healing should be over a 60 period on average for a protracted fight.

So...with actual numbers:

How is DRK "too weak" here when it has the most total heal + shields in terms of personal sustain?

If we're talking about PARTY sustain, that definitely becomes a different issue since PLD can heal others at cost (Clemency) and WAR can heal others at no cost to itself (Nascene gives the same heal, even if it doesn't give the mitigation, Shake has no downside unless you accidentally end a mit too early); but even there, GNB is in a similar situation to DRK. Would have to do a bunch of numbers to compare...all that...and I'm about to pass out, so I'll just post this now and come back another time, maybe.

[Zairava]

snip

Shields are not self-sustain. I get how they could be seen as such, but they are two different types of tank CD's, so they shouldn't have been included. Effective HP isn't the same as actually healing the damage, it's merely preventing the damage from being taken. Let me use an actual shield as an example here for shields/mitigation.

When you block attacks with a shield, all it does is negate, or reduce, damage intake, but it will not heal any wounds inflicted from the impact. You aren't healing, you're defending, and having strictly one or the other only gets you so far.

All TBN proves is that DRK is stronger defensively rather than with sustainability. DRK isn't even on the same realm of self-healing as the other tanks, and it honestly doesn't even need all that much sustain if any. The only place DRK "needs" it is in dungeons and not raids.


WAR and PLD really need party healing toned down though. Party healing outside of niche abilities like Clemency should be left to the actual healers.

[Voidedge_Ragna]

All the drk math only works out if every single shield breaks and you choose to never burst for openers, in which a drk will blow its entire mp pool (unless criticals busters come up) And even then the drk will have to choose to not burst prep for the next burst window and only use its mp to shield and remain around 0-3000mp. Which comes down to mitigating autos, you will get some wild looks for doing that.

And as said above shields are not heals, shields falls off if their not used.

In a vacuum the math could maybe check out, but these scenarios wont happen.

[Oizen]

I'm also pretty sure using TBN that many times per minute is going to lead to a loss to damage output, not only because its not going to break on every use, but because you wont be heading into the next burst window with capped mp.

[Zairava]

I'm also pretty sure using TBN that many times per minute is going to lead to a loss to damage output, not only because its not going to break on every use, but because you wont be heading into the next burst window with capped mp.

It is, because of raid buffs.

[dspguy]

Since MMOs have come out, some players would say "just play what you want" while others would say "Yeah, but maybe you really shouldn't play THAT job/class because this other one is better in these circumstances."

FFXIV is moving towards "just play whatever tank you want, since they are all pretty much the same."

I don't see the big deal really. You can't play multiple jobs at once. Pick whichever tank has the weapon/animations that you like.

[RyuDragnier]

My main gripe with DRK is how it is basically the unloved child here.

WAR/PLD/GNB can heal themselves, DRK cannot.
WAR/PLD/GNB can heal another, DRK cannot.
WAR/PLD/GNB's self mitigations can work against anything. DRK has one that cannot work against physicals.
WAR/PLD/GNB all got upgrades to their unique cooldowns. DRK did not.

I understand people not wanting homogenization, but 3/4 tanks is a bad precedent to set when the last one tends to struggle harder because it does not have what the others have. They either have to change one of the tanks to also not fit those, which we all know people will raise hell about, or you have to fix DRK so it ALSO fits those.

[Oizen]

Not that I disagree with your point but PLD's inability to tank bleed damage is a big reason it got reworked and Bulwark was added/block was removed from HS.
In which Bulwark now fills the extra mit category, and still does not work on bleed damage.

It would also be pretty nuts if we made Dark Mind work on everything as a Rampart 2. But I guess we'd just kinda have to change what the skill does all together at that point.

[RyuDragnier]

It would also be pretty nuts if we made Dark Mind work on everything as a Rampart 2. But I guess we'd just kinda have to change what the skill does all together at that point.

They don't need to have it do the full mitigation, they can give it the Addle treatment and have it mitigate 10% of physical damage along with the 20% magical.