Healing and mitigation balance issues

[Renathras]

All jobs can clear content, but are all jobs necessary to clear content, when people are clearing ultimates with literally no healers?

To be fair, one group of 8 people is hardly "people are clearing ultimates". It's "people" in the absolute most technical sense of "more than one Human being", but in any realistic sense, it isn't. ONE GROUP doing a thing getting overblown to the point of abject ridiculousness.

NOTE: This isn't me saying encounter design doesn't need changing (I say all the time it does), nor me saying the game doesn't need to require more healing (I say all the time it does), nor me saying Tank and DPS healing and mitigation is fine where it is (I say all the time both need to be reduced) - but the amount of currency in hyperbole people have gotten from the fact one group that INTENSELY focused on a specific fight to figure out how to cheese mechanics with Cover and delayed Raise acceptance along with luck...is abjectly insane. That's like saying "Marathons are easy, a few thousands of people do them all the time", as if everyone was doing it. Or "Anyone can beat the AI Go master, after all, the best Human player in the world played 5 matches against it and won 1, so OBVIOUSLY anyone can do it!"

"But the Ultimate before was cleared with one healer!!" - Yes, also by cheesing things they could, bringing the most versatile Healer Job, having their Tank and DPS heal (like their PLD and RDM were casting Clemency and Vercure), and having to play flawlessly several times in a row until the RNG lined up for them to get the clear. Again, this is not something PEOPLE are doing in a general sense. It again is an argument that encounter designs need changing and Tank/DPS healing and mitigation needs nerfing, but these are exceptions that prove the rule, not rules in themselves.

...sorry. I'm just sick and tired of people seeing one example of a thing from EXTREMELY talented and dedicated people and suddenly deciding it's a game-wide problem when no one else is doing it and the amount of players that even CAN do it is ridiculously small, and most of THEM aren't bothering to try because it's just not worth the trouble. Once one team has done it and proved it's possible, there's literally no incentive for anyone else to try because it's just stupidly inefficient.

People need to stop using those cases as some wider example of reality.

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I agree with your premise, but that example is the dead horse beaten into dust already, and it doesn't even make sense to use it for any rational arguments to begin with.

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OP: I agree in part - Jobs within a role/subrole should not be TOO far apart in what they offer - but not in whole - what you're asking for is bland homogenization. FFXIV's combat system needs to be less rigid and allow for other forms of utility and such before that can seriously be factored in.

[GaiusDrakon]

To be fair, one group of 8 people is hardly "people are clearing ultimates". It's "people" in the absolute most technical sense of "more than one Human being", but in any realistic sense, it isn't. ONE GROUP doing a thing getting overblown to the point of abject ridiculousness.

NOTE: This isn't me saying encounter design doesn't need changing (I say all the time it does), nor me saying the game doesn't need to require more healing (I say all the time it does), nor me saying Tank and DPS healing and mitigation is fine where it is (I say all the time both need to be reduced) - but the amount of currency in hyperbole people have gotten from the fact one group that INTENSELY focused on a specific fight to figure out how to cheese mechanics with Cover and delayed Raise acceptance along with luck...is abjectly insane. That's like saying "Marathons are easy, a few thousands of people do them all the time", as if everyone was doing it. Or "Anyone can beat the AI Go master, after all, the best Human player in the world played 5 matches against it and won 1, so OBVIOUSLY anyone can do it!"

"But the Ultimate before was cleared with one healer!!" - Yes, also by cheesing things they could, bringing the most versatile Healer Job, having their Tank and DPS heal (like their PLD and RDM were casting Clemency and Vercure), and having to play flawlessly several times in a row until the RNG lined up for them to get the clear. Again, this is not something PEOPLE are doing in a general sense. It again is an argument that encounter designs need changing and Tank/DPS healing and mitigation needs nerfing, but these are exceptions that prove the rule, not rules in themselves.

...sorry. I'm just sick and tired of people seeing one example of a thing from EXTREMELY talented and dedicated people and suddenly deciding it's a game-wide problem when no one else is doing it and the amount of players that even CAN do it is ridiculously small, and most of THEM aren't bothering to try because it's just not worth the trouble. Once one team has done it and proved it's possible, there's literally no incentive for anyone else to try because it's just stupidly inefficient.

People need to stop using those cases as some wider example of reality.

.

I agree with your premise, but that example is the dead horse beaten into dust already, and it doesn't even make sense to use it for any rational arguments to begin with.

.

OP: I agree in part - Jobs within a role/subrole should not be TOO far apart in what they offer - but not in whole - what you're asking for is bland homogenization. FFXIV's combat system needs to be less rigid and allow for other forms of utility and such before that can seriously be factored in.

Why is this grey healer talking about Ultimate solo-healing?

In most Savages/Ultimates the only reason why solo healing is hard is because some mechanics are healer-targeted which makes the mechanics harder, not the actual healing.

There are only two reasons why everyone hasn't already moved to 2/1/5 compositions after prog:

1. Standard comp is default on FFLogs
2. Some mechanics target healers (like light party stacks), and having only 1 healer makes the mechanic more random/harder.

The average static is more than capable of solo-healing if mechanics don't target healers. Again, the AVERAGE.

If you think that a third party against-the-ToS website and mechanics forcing you to bring 2 healers or the stack goes on someone random keeping 2 healer composition relevant is good design, then you will forever be gray. This is a game-wide problem. I can guarantee you that if FFLogs suddenly disappears a lot more statics would switch to 2/1/5. And if there aren't healer-targeting mechanics in any floor? Well, say goodbye to 2/2/4 forever: it allows the second healer to switch to a DPS job, which is way more fun. And it allows the first healer to actually need to heal, which is more fun.

ps: oh and inb4 someone goes "well the average static still needs 2 healers for prog". sure? but that's mostly for the second raise, not the actual healing. and having an entire role be only relevant during prog is exactly why SB WHM was seen as a disaster.

[HyonaCookie]

OP: I agree in part - Jobs within a role/subrole should not be TOO far apart in what they offer - but not in whole - what you're asking for is bland homogenization. FFXIV's combat system needs to be less rigid and allow for other forms of utility and such before that can seriously be factored in.

I'm not sure what yo mean by in whole, but I do mean within job roles and subroles.

[Jojoya]

As Yoshi said if you want to enjoy a healer just go do Ultimates... Oh wait we don't need healers for Ultimates. Guess he means "Lul go play something else."

Got a link to your healerless clear?

Don't bother sharing the Casual Player link, I know about that one and it's an outlier based on a specific comp for a group formed by some of the best players in the world.

I'm looking for videos that prove other comps with slightly less skilled players can also go healerless.

[GaiusDrakon]

Got a link to your healerless clear?

Don't bother sharing the Casual Player link, I know about that one and it's an outlier based on a specific comp for a group formed by some of the best players in the world.

I'm looking for videos that prove other comps with slightly less skilled players can also go healerless.

You never stray from the teachings, pastor! I love your sermons so much. They're always firmly grounded in the Bible and you use my favorite passage Luke 12:11 all the time!!

[Sebazy]

...sorry. I'm just sick and tired of people seeing one example of a thing from EXTREMELY talented and dedicated people and suddenly deciding it's a game-wide problem when no one else is doing it and the amount of players that even CAN do it is ridiculously small, and most of THEM aren't bothering to try because it's just not worth the trouble. Once one team has done it and proved it's possible, there's literally no incentive for anyone else to try because it's just stupidly inefficient.

There are only two reasons why everyone hasn't already moved to 2/1/5 compositions after prog:

1. Standard comp is default on FFLogs
2. Some mechanics target healers (like light party stacks), and having only 1 healer makes the mechanic more random/harder.

To further clarify this point.

This used to be a really common occurrence and IMHO logs hiding non standard comps from the main rankings did more to limit the frequency of 1 healer or 1 tank runs than almost anything SE have managed to do over the years.

The standard comp switch happened during the creator tier if I remember correctly, and it was in response to it almost becoming the norm to drop a healer for easier turns like A9S if you wanted any shot at the rankings. You can confirm this yourself by comparing the number of non standard comp runs in 3.4 vs 3.5.