2 minute burst window vs fight design

[Mithron]

If every job has different timers on cooldowns, burst windows and playstyles, the fight design would need to change to reflect that if we want to keep the design philosophy of "bring the player, not the job."

What's more important to you? Having fights were all jobs are more equal because every fight has largely the same design? Or every job being different and thus some jobs inevitably being better in some fights than others due to the nature of mechanics and fight design? Obviously this is still currently the case even with 2 minute burst window, but as previous expansions showed, it was pushed with a lot more disparity.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Means nothing when they intentionally put mechanics in during the 2 min burst that mess with uptime.

The 2 min burst blanket was a mistake. It need to go away.

Frankly, I'd be OK with party wide buffs going away as a whole.

[HyperiusUltima]

If every job has different timers on cooldowns, burst windows and playstyles, the fight design would need to change to reflect that if we want to keep the design philosophy of "bring the player, not the job."

What's more important to you? Having fights were all jobs are more equal because every fight has largely the same design? Or every job being different and thus some jobs inevitably being better in some fights than others due to the nature of mechanics and fight design?

Well everyone's of the same consensus that they're sick of being forced into the "2 Minute Meta" which the developers did - that nobody asked for. As for fight design, I think Pandaemonium is one of the worst raids out there in regards to it. While I did like the lore added with the raid, there were issues from last tier that painted certain jobs as 'bad' - WAR/PLD in particular, due to WAR's low damage and PLD not fitting into burst windows until they came with the 6.3 fix. We also have problems with Crit Variance, which is exacerbated by the 2m Burst Window, making things worse in the larger scope of things in regards to clearing. Hephaistos Savage was an example of this, to the point where if you didn't bring GNB/DRK you wouldn't pass the DPS Check.

If anything, I think having some variance is good, but it should not create instances where one tank is better than the other outright for certain fights. I remember back in Heavensward we had this issue with 'Flavor of the Month' regarding what damage type would be caused: Physical or Magical. Since WAR was top, you'd either bring PLD/DRK and shirk the other one(which PLD mostly got the short stick). We're winding towards that same issue, but more on fight design and how burst windows work in regards to DRK taking advantage of downtime to regenerate MP.

[RyuDragnier]

Some players were just not there during the days of HW when MNK was not taken when there was a DRK in the party due to both having an Int debuff (MNK's was on Dragon Kick), how DRG was MANDATORY if you had a BRD/MCH due to the piercing debuff, and how NIN basically invalidated one of WAR's combos because if the slash debuff they both did. Then there was also AST either making WHM not taken due to Diurnal being so strong, or SCH being dropped because Nocturnal was so strong. And then there was PLD being useless against magic bosses because back then they couldn't guard magic damage with Sheltron, making DRK mandatory.

We've seen how bad disparity can get, which is also why the devs started moving away from that.

Well everyone's of the same consensus that they're sick of being forced into the "2 Minute Meta" which the developers did - that nobody asked for.

You mean the playerbase DIDN'T ask for some of the buffs to be 60s, 30s, or 2m so they could fit into the burst windows easier? Because I distinctly recall a LOT of threads asking for that back in the day.

[Mithron]

Some players were just not there during the days of HW when MNK was not taken when there was a DRK in the party due to both having an Int debuff (MNK's was on Dragon Kick), how DRG was MANDATORY if you had a BRD/MCH due to the piercing debuff, and how NIN basically invalidated one of WAR's combos because if the slash debuff they both did. Then there was also AST either making WHM not taken due to Diurnal being so strong, or SCH being dropped because Nocturnal was so strong. And then there was PLD being useless against magic bosses because back then they couldn't guard magic damage with Sheltron, making DRK mandatory.

We've seen how bad disparity can get, which is also why the devs started moving away from that.

I was there. I'd rather deal with that than how bad fight design and mechanics are now.

[GaiusDrakon]

Some players were just not there during the days of HW when MNK was not taken when there was a DRK in the party due to both having an Int debuff (MNK's was on Dragon Kick), how DRG was MANDATORY if you had a BRD/MCH due to the piercing debuff, and how NIN basically invalidated one of WAR's combos because if the slash debuff they both did. Then there was also AST either making WHM not taken due to Diurnal being so strong, or SCH being dropped because Nocturnal was so strong. And then there was PLD being useless against magic bosses because back then they couldn't guard magic damage with Sheltron, making DRK mandatory.

We've seen how bad disparity can get, which is also why the devs started moving away from that.


You mean the playerbase DIDN'T ask for some of the buffs to be 60s, 30s, or 2m so they could fit into the burst windows easier? Because I distinctly recall a LOT of threads asking for that back in the day.

Half of those are wrong or didn't matter??

MNK wasn't taken because it was blunt. Literally who cares that they both had an INT debuff?

NIN and WAR both applying Slashing didn't matter either as both were taken and applying Slashing is literally going to happen as part of the normal rotation on both jobs. You lose and gain nothing taking both.

AST getting taken?? Because of Diurnal??????? LOL??? Noct AST replacing SCH??? In HEAVENSWARD??? Are you high? They only became meta for parses in Creator because of Balance. Literally who took it because of Diurnal in HW??????

[Coatl]

It's not good for the game in the long term when fight design has to take into account a piss break every two minutes.

[RyuDragnier]

I was there. I'd rather deal with that than how bad fight design and mechanics are now.

So you'd prefer to be useless against magic as a PLD again and be dropped because you're worthless in several raid fight in a tier? You'd like for your RDM to be thrown out of a group because its burst doesn't align with 90s raid buff cooldowns that the party is aligning around?

[Absimiliard]

So you'd prefer to be useless against magic as a PLD again and be dropped because you're worthless in several raid fight in a tier? You'd like for your RDM to be thrown out of a group because its burst doesn't align with 90s raid buff cooldowns that the party is aligning around?

PLD and RDM are already intentionally excluded anyway. Scrapping the two-minute burst meta wouldn't do them any favors, yeah, but they're already getting screwed.

Frankly, to me, the meta seems to be a huge source of stagnation for endgame fight design. Trying to force everything to work with it has resulted in an incredible amount of job homogenization and a decrease in fight mechanics that are creative or fun in favor of bosses having a spameurysm every couple minute.

[RyuDragnier]

PLD and RDM are already intentionally excluded anyway. Scrapping the two-minute burst meta wouldn't do them any favors, yeah, but they're already getting screwed.

Frankly, to me, the meta seems to be a huge source of stagnation for endgame fight design. Trying to force everything to work with it has resulted in an incredible amount of job homogenization and a decrease in fight mechanics that are creative or fun in favor of bosses having a spameurysm every couple minute.

Unfortunately, the players make the meta, so it's the players fault things come to this. They'll never be appeased.