Chainsaw Fixed But Not Fixed?

[BaroLlyonesse]

Modifying Chainsaw again to its current form, it's less effective than it was overall.

To keep the battle flow, a MCH should be constantly using the Drill chain. But for Chainsaw to deal more damage than Air Anchor, you need to target someone with less than 50% health. There are a number of times in combat that the scenario doesn't exist; for example, if five of us are versus three of them, and we chase them off / kill them, I rarely get past Air Anchor. So for the start of the next press, I have a non-bonused Chainsaw hanging in my queue.

Ninja's "<50%" clause is different, because it's a LB and out of rotation for basic skills; meaning you don't fundamentally reduce your effectiveness by hanging on for a few seconds for a good target. I appreciate how they were trying to fix Chainsaw but this isn't really the best solution. I feel as if Chainsaw would be better to have it ignore that default DR that classes get, or increase the overall potency/Analysis bonus.

Or, ya know, decide to actually make MCH skills match the concept. But that's a pipe dream. :P

[Archeron]

I have the hot take that Machinist needs an overhaul as a whole. Two melee proximity attacks, and nothing to protect us besides the drone. Could really use an ability to kick us back a few yards like BRD. The LB is also practically useless a lot of the time in FL except against targets with low DR, and you can guard through the LB if you're fast fingered.

[Valence]

I was not very hot about the use of A.Chainsaw after the change, but it actually opened up a lot of gameplay options. I get actual kills from it on a regular basis. The thing about MCH is being able to adjust to the tool your rotation is primed on and see what options you have before you. Drill and Anchor still remain the de facto analysis tools and it's pretty rare that I use them natively, but Anchor can happen at times if it's just to prevent somebody from fleeing and secure a kill for your team, as the stun is only a bonus in those cases.

If you're on Bio primed and see that you can hit the whole enemy team, then do it, it's pretty potent. If you're on Chainsaw primed and see that you have low HP stragglers or targets, then do it. If not, then don't analysis it.

It's okay to wait a little after to use Drill properly. A.Chainsaw actually can chain quite well after an A/Anchor WF burst if you don't completely kill the target, I think this specific scenario is one of the little nasty things it brought to the kit.

DR shenanigans can be added to the skill as it is for Frontlines (so that we get a truly bloated tooltip), but let's stop trying to make skills useless for CC, where balance actually matters and the jobs are designed for.

Current pvp MCH has never felt closer to the MCH identity ever. Would be such a shame for it to be reworked, especially since it performs quite well.

[BaroLlyonesse]

The thing about MCH is being able to adjust to the tool your rotation is primed on and see what options you have before you. Drill and Anchor still remain the de facto analysis tools and it's pretty rare that I use them natively, but Anchor can happen at times if it's just to prevent somebody from fleeing and secure a kill for your team, as the stun is only a bonus in those cases.

DR shenanigans can be added to the skill as it is for Frontlines (so that we get a truly bloated tooltip), but let's stop trying to make skills useless for CC, where balance actually matters and the jobs are designed for.

Current pvp MCH has never felt closer to the MCH identity ever. Would be such a shame for it to be reworked, especially since it performs quite well.

It does, and I've used it for good effect. My thought is more that for optimal use, you either have to stop a rotation entirely, or deal with the end of your four-chain being quantifiably weaker than the first step. There's no one else that has to stop their general rotation to deal progressively more damage.

The identity is getting closer, yes. It sucks that the DR changes from two attempts ago pretty much remove the total utility of the sniper rifle; there should be no issue with letting MCH have a massive, potentially killing, attack that ignores DR, because that's the entire point. You still have to monitor your targets carefully, because 36k isn't going to kill anyone at full health without related status conditions (which is the excuse why NIN and SAM OHKO isn't unbalanced).

I'd like to see MCH have ranges set to 30y, give some kind of either backstep Recoil or stealth ability (Ghillie Suit?), and let Bioblaster be changed from cone to 'mortar' style targeting. The identity seems pretty clear from the kits over the changes: They want MCH to be big glass cannons against single targets. And that would be awesome. But to do that, they need to have a bit more that encourages that. But design choices like that are so freakin' weird.

I get that 'fun' is important, but giving everyone gap closing or opening moves, with very few exceptions, seems just arbitrary. I heard someone say the logic why WAR has two different dashes and a draw in was because if they didn't, they'd never get to melee everyone and everyone would play ranged attackers. But... that's kind of the point of ranged attackers, and right now, over half the players in my FL queues are Tanks, so that's clearly not balanced, either. When people say 'Bioblaster is fine as a cone, anyone should be able to get in and back out, git gud', why do melees have to have these gap closers at all? Shouldn't they git gud?

I drifted a bit afield there, but the end is, I'd like to see Chainsaw get something of a better buff with Analysis, either ignore DR or double instead of 50%, and keep working the kit to something that relates to what seems to be the end goal.

[Valence]

I don't think that stopping the rotation is a good thing to do. That's something newer players may fall into, but at least they have the correct mindset in trying to pull proper bursts. With experience I do feel that you actually find ways to adjust constantly to what is ready and what isn't. One of the big hurdles in learning MCH, at least for me, was to get out of the mindset that I must do THIS burst specifically without variation. It makes your job way too rigid and unable to adjust to what's happening. If your Drill or Anchor aren't primed for the end of a WF burst because you used them before to secure a kill without the burst (Drill because it deletes people guarding at low health, or even at higher health if your team is ready to pounce after, and Anchor because it's like Nocturne or Raiju, it's a stun so it enables bursting down people or chasing stragglers), then you can try and end the burst on Scattergun (which makes for a bigger potency WF in counterpart btw). You can also end the burst on a normal chainsaw, it's not dirty.

The burst can definitely kill people and it happens regularly, but it's not primarily made to secure kills, unlike using A.Drill and Anchor out of the burst. Its main function is to nuke defensive resources out of players and apply strong alpha damage pressure or just to burst players down with your team (if possible if they are also CCed by your team). It's way too cumbersome to set up and use in order to secure a kill, the target will have fled or healed or the opportunity gone way before you even finish setting up WF otherwise... In any case, you don't use the burst in the same cases that you'd use a lone Drill, Anchor, or Spite.

All in all I've never felt that my tools were not properly aligned for ages now. At best the thing that makes me wince is when I have to end a WF burst on Bio because even Scattergun is off, but that's rare, and tbh, it's still good damage.

The big difficulty in playing the job well imo is to be able to adust your toolkit to what OPPORTUNITIES you face at any given time. The kit is extremely flexible and is probably the job that offers the most combinations of things you can do, but it also comes at the cost of constraints in rotation and setups, which brings a certain amount of skillplay into it.

On Spite in FLs, I do agree it's extremely underwhelming, not only due to DR, but also because in CC it deletes 1/5th of the enemy team, while in FL it deletes 1/24th or 1/48th depending how you see it... if it deletes them since melees are too tough anyway, and you need BH4-5 to make it shine. But that's the harsh reality of LBs in FLs. It's not the only LB that's very mediocre here (have you heard of BRD's LB, the worse LB in existence in both worlds?). SCH LB in FLs is pretty laughable, WAR as well. Honestly they'd probably need to decorrelate FLs from CC on pvp and tune every pvp action a little differently with their own potencies, twists, etc. Adding some DR bypasses as you say on MCH, maybe, whatever does the job.

[Nubrication]

I have the hot take that Machinist needs an overhaul as a whole. Two melee proximity attacks, and nothing to protect us besides the drone. Could really use an ability to kick us back a few yards like BRD. The LB is also practically useless a lot of the time in FL except against targets with low DR, and you can guard through the LB if you're fast fingered.

No way lmao. That’s why you have to know when and when not to use bio or your knockback. Don’t have purify or guard? Don’t go in. Simple. *In FL

If MCH gets a backstep, it would be absolutely overpowered in CC. It’s damage output is already insane to begin with, it definitely doesn’t need any buffs.

[BaroLlyonesse]

No way lmao. That’s why you have to know when and when not to use bio or your knockback. Don’t have purify or guard? Don’t go in. Simple. *In FL

If MCH gets a backstep, it would be absolutely overpowered in CC. It’s damage output is already insane to begin with, it definitely doesn’t need any buffs.

If MCH shouldn't have a backstep because it would make them overpowered, why does everyone else need mobility options? Even in CC, shouldn't a WAR be able to save one of its three gap closers or its draw in to be able to deal with it?

[Archeron]

It's not the only LB that's very mediocre here (have you heard of BRD's LB, the worse LB in existence in both worlds?). SCH LB in FLs is pretty laughable, WAR as well.

On the contrary Warriors LB can be absolutely devestating, especially when combined with a well timed salted earth/Shatter, it has potentially team wiping consequences. I've felt its always been a pretty strong LB.

Bard LB on the other hand might as well not exist for how useless it seems to be.

[Valence]

On the contrary Warriors LB can be absolutely devestating, especially when combined with a well timed salted earth/Shatter, it has potentially team wiping consequences. I've felt its always been a pretty strong LB.

I don't consider single target fell cleaves to be really impactful in a blob of 50 people tbh. I know Primal Rend does double damage under LB so I guess there is that, but I wouldn't take WAR if my aim was to apply AoE damage in the first place. The CC and draw in options are where WAR shines in FLs, especially in order to delete BH5 people.

[Kathleen_]

I don't consider single target fell cleaves to be really impactful in a blob of 50 people tbh. I know Primal Rend does double damage under LB so I guess there is that, but I wouldn't take WAR if my aim was to apply AoE damage in the first place. The CC and draw in options are where WAR shines in FLs, especially in order to delete BH5 people.

Fell Cleave is whatever, the best thing about WAR LB in FL is guard breaking right before a salted pull and following up with an immediate hard cc combo of 26k damage (+16k more from Cyclone for the few people that survive). A premade of DRK, DRG and 2 WARs can guard break every other salted. WAR's aoe damage, utility and survivability in FL are to be respected.