On Her Existence [6.4 Raid Story Spoilers]

[Narnio]

One of the biggest revelations of the Pandaemonium story this patch was the existence of Ultima, the High Seraph long before the sundering occurred. She's the one who much of the troubles of auracite originate from, and I think her role has greatly graduated from just a final Alliance Raid boss to a true threat whose implications reach further than we may have thought.

Just one issue, if Ultima was present during the unsundered world, what came of her following the sundering? Was she simply sundered into 14 shards with the rest of Etheirys, or did she leave beforehand?

Going off the timeline of events, Ultima visited Etheriys and whether directly or not gave the Heart of Sabik to Athena. Following the sundering, no information is known until Saint Ajora would "summon" her in a bid to destroy the Holy Ydoran Empire. It's implied the other Zodiac Braves didn't quite agree with this method, and worked in some capacity with the Mothercrystal to seal Ultima away. Her legend would spread throughout mankind, and soon people would begin to worship her "feeding the extradimensional traveler's empty soul until it brimmed with a force completely alien to Her— a sense of self".

She was claimed to be a vessel of pure ruination, but through prayer and worship gained a sense of self.. If Athena did somehow directly gain the auracite from Ultima, it'd go directly against the idea that she is just ruination incarnate.

What it sounds like, to me, is that there's one of two things going on.

A) Ultima's pure ruination visited Eitherys, dropped off some auracite that Athena managed to find, and either fled / remained during the Sundering. She was then somehow summoned by Saint Ajora, and then through fear of her legend grew into a self-aware entity.

Or B) The Ultima that visited Eitherys pre-sundering and the Ultima Saint Ajora summoned are two separate entities, with the latter being a primal that became self-aware through devotion (see the Light of Klitia or Sect of Germonique).

Option B, if true, would imply that the real High Seraph is still somewhere out there. Whether in the cosmos, or hiding somewhere within the star, she appears to be a force to be reckoned with.

The only problem with Option B is the existence of her primal-auracite still holding the capabilities of things such as the Heart of Sabik. If it's not the genuine thing, should it even still work? Can a primal produce materiel like that?

Although I doubt this was the original plan, her being tied back to the Heart of Sabik does leave open the possibility of her influence being seen again, what with the Heart now being actively researched. The possibility of her returning in future content, potentially even MSQ given the current lead writer's history with Matsuno, seems likely.

I'm very curious what others might think of these points, or if there are some insights I'm missing. This may just be a nice way to tie back old plot threads, but perhaps there's more to it?

[GrizzlyTank]

Jenova? Jenova!

Honestly do hope they go with a FFVII themed story with the focus as something Jenova esque being the antagonist.

Sorry Sephiroth fans but there is just something more intimidating with a planet eating "The Thing" than one of it's many thralls.

Reddit conspiracy thread with P12S spoiler https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...um_theorywish/

[Cilia]

Ultima the High Seraph was already established as being something of a composite of her Tactics self and Jenova back in Return to Ivalice.

This potential link nettles me greatly. As someone who is not a fan of Ivalice (yes, such people exist), having it referenced or brought up at every available opportunity is grating... and before you j'accuse me of being irrationally disdainful, you are correct but it's not limited just to that (I'm also rankled by 6.x being an extended IV reference).

Anyway, as you said there is the possibility of Ultima having dropped off the Heart of Sabik and then returning when called by Saint Ajora... but it's also possible the Heart comes from something else entirely, and our PC guessing it was the High Seraph came only from our limited knowledge. Given the devs' love of Ivalice, Athena's seraphic appearance as a boss, and the fact her Savage exclusive phase apparently uses another mix of Ultima's Perfection though, Ultima being the culprit seems much more likely than not. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but jamming another Ivalice reference into what's supposed to homage II rankles.

Personal grousing aside, I'm not sure if this is going to matter moving forward and if so how much. Ultima is supposed to have been destroyed in Return to Ivalice, even if her auracite are still potential hazards, and I'd like to hope the Sharlayans of all people are smart enough not to go messing with the Heart. From Meteion's account and actions there are few if any other living things in the known universe, so an alien threat seems unlikely with the current status quo; that only includes things she'd consider alive (so machina and aetheric constructs don't count), but whatever.

[RyuDragnier]

Keep in mind that Savage is often a retelling misinterpreted by somebody and their assumptions, meaning it's not canon. If anything, Ultima's Perfection being there is the NPC for Savage assuming that Athena IS connected to Ultima. There's always a chance that the auracite was in a meteorite that fell to the earth, and that's how Athena found it. We just don't know at this point, but it's definitely a plot hook I suspect they'll sink their teeth into much later.

[Iscah]

Alternate theory which may need fine-tuning... what if Athena is Ultima?

Her stated aim is to become a god and ascend to a higher plane of existence. IIRC Ultima was also described as coming from another plane.

What if the memory of Athena in the Heart of Sabik is just a copy of the original, who succeeded and slipped away from the world entirely?

[MikkoAkure]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but jamming another Ivalice reference into what's supposed to homage II rankles.

There's not a rule that says that they can only have elements of 1 Final Fantasy per story, and the connection to Ultima was more of a wrapping up of loose plot threads than a central key element to the raid imo. From what I remember playing Tactics and XII as a kid, Ultima didn't even get this level of backstory in the Ivalice games and a lot of this is probably XIV original anyway.

We know auracite causes people to lose control of themselves towards a goal, the Heart is called "auracite" in Japanese, the nasty auracite comes from Ultima, Lahabrea had the Heart in ARR, and Lahabrea was the only unsundered Ascian to not get real focus, background, and a pity story. In retrospect, combining all of the elements together is obvious.

[Narnio]

Given the devs' love of Ivalice, Athena's seraphic appearance as a boss, and the fact her Savage exclusive phase apparently uses another mix of Ultima's Perfection though, Ultima being the culprit seems much more likely than not. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but jamming another Ivalice reference into what's supposed to homage II rankles.

If only to throw another match into the bonfire, the main attack Athena does when she splits the arena is the same Ultima does when she's trying to melt the Alliance to death. The other angels circling the arena are also incredibly similar to the ones in the Ultima fight, however are slightly different.

From Meteion's account and actions there are few if any other living things in the known universe, so an alien threat seems unlikely with the current status quo

Unfortunately, a certain inspector's questline confirms that there is still life out there (assuming there's nothing special about them), as well as the additional quest for Omega in 6.1 (which granted, is only a signal).

I understand maybe not being a fan of Ivalice though, as being newer to the series though I just appreciate the usage of a rich setting with original elements mixed in, as long as it's not done all the time. The new MSQ writer however was Matsuno's second-in-command for the Ivalice raids, who also wrote Pandaemonium's story. I would suspect a lot of Ivalice/Dalmasca to be brought up in the common patches, assuming we don't just go to the nation at some point there.

[Cilia]

At the end of the day the Ultima the High Seraph link is there both to further the homage to II and tie up the loose end of the Heart of Sabik; Athena takes a lot of cues from Emperor Mateus, who is implied to have made a bargain with Satan for power prior to the events of the game. As XIV lacks any true divine or demonic beings, a source for Athena's power and madness was required to further the parallel; Ultima is the closest thing there is to a truly demonic being in the setting, and that just happened to nicely tie up the loose end regarding the Heart of Sabik as well.

Of course, both Mateus and Athena ended up being worse than their benefactors, what with Mateus taking over Hell after his death and then coming back to finish the job, while Athena came a good sight closer to achieving true divinity and destroying the world than Ultima ever did.

It's not a big deal, but it still irritates me a little.

Does this suggest Ultima the High Seraph will make a comeback in future content? I don't think so, but never say never.

[Cleretic]

The struggle with an Ultima story is it's going to feel like a cop-out if it's just 'Ultima's behind it all', because... well, we already killed Ultima. A while ago. With relatively little fanfare, with little idea she was important to this part, and in side content that they're (both most likely, and hopefully) not going to make mandatory.

So while she's definitely going to be relevant to any continuing story about this, she's not going to be the main thing, if for no other reason than the fact they aren't going to want to make both a Stormblood alliance raid and an Endwalker normal raid both mandatory.

...which yeah, as I mentioned in another thread, means that if this road's leading anywhere it's to Jenova.

[Narnio]

The struggle with an Ultima story is it's going to feel like a cop-out if it's just 'Ultima's behind it all', because... well, we already killed Ultima. A while ago. With relatively little fanfare, with little idea she was important to this part, and in side content that they're (both most likely, and hopefully) not going to make mandatory.

That again is why I'm wondering if the Ultima we killed hasn't been retconned to have only been a primal, given the information we now have about her and references of her being "summoned". I can only suppose time will tell, but if they wanted to bring her back in any meaningful capacity this would provide some explanation.