Too much pressure on the 2000 cap endgame tomestone

[Colt47]

This is a bit of an issue and has been since the manderville stuff ended up being hooked up to it. I was trying to figure out why I was having so many issues with keeping up on savage + crafting / gathering, and realized that with the manderville stuff taking up the tomestones normally used for crafting materials it is way too easy to fall behind on just about everything.

I can only imagine what it is like for someone returning this patch and wants to do savage but also is an omni crafter and still on a mix of 590 and 560 crafting gear. While the end game 2000 cap tomestone is "easy" to get, it is also "very repetitive" to get. The content drought makes it a heavy burden to keep running all the roulettes over and over regardless of benefit.

Crafting doesn't really need to be easier but if we're going to start taxing the 2000 end game tomestone there better be a boost to spirit bonding per craft given the amount of time it takes to craft one item vs killing mobs of proper level. That or maybe make it so when the patch drops they sell the items needed 100% through scrips, and maybe even the crafted mats.

Like what exactly happened since SB to change the course and attitude on crafting? Wasn't Firmament meant to help eliminate the mountain that prevented people from doing crafting? The Island Sanctuary doesn't even give spirit bonding benefits for crafters and gatherers since the entire thing is a separate system. Just throwing crafting and gathering materia onto the rewards list doesn't make it a thing.

[Jojoya]

This is a bit of an issue and has been since the manderville stuff ended up being hooked up to it. I was trying to figure out why I was having so many issues with keeping up on savage + crafting / gathering, and realized that with the manderville stuff taking up the tomestones normally used for crafting materials it is way too easy to fall behind on just about everything.

I can only imagine what it is like for someone returning this patch and wants to do savage but also is an omni crafter and still on a mix of 590 and 560 crafting gear. While the end game 2000 cap tomestone is "easy" to get, it is also "very repetitive" to get. The content drought makes it a heavy burden to keep running all the roulettes over and over regardless of benefit.

Crafting doesn't really need to be easier but if we're going to start taxing the 2000 end game tomestone there better be a boost to spirit bonding per craft given the amount of time it takes to craft one item vs killing mobs of proper level. That or maybe make it so when the patch drops they sell the items needed 100% through scrips, and maybe even the crafted mats.

Like what exactly happened since SB to change the course and attitude on crafting? Wasn't Firmament meant to help eliminate the mountain that prevented people from doing crafting? The Island Sanctuary doesn't even give spirit bonding benefits for crafters and gatherers since the entire thing is a separate system. Just throwing crafting and gathering materia onto the rewards list doesn't make it a thing.

What content drought? This is something that got broken down in a General Discussion thread. We're in no more of a content drought right now than we were in Shadowbringers. The quantity of content is almost exactly the same, subbing Variant/Criterion and Deep Dungeon for the exploration zone we got then.

Someone returning to the game at the start of a patch is always at a big disadvantage when it comes to getting gear if they won't pay the gil for either the gear or materials they need. Nothing new there. They're also less likely to find tomestone farming less boring and repetitive than someone who has been doing it for the past 4 months without a break.

The change to crafting/gathering was primarily to make it easier to level so those with an interest in the end game side of the content would have less of a barrier to entry. They still have to overcome the hurdles of getting gear and materials if they want to take part.

I don't think your concern for returning players is necessary. If they were previously doing Savage raiding and/or end game crafting/gathering, they knew exactly what would be waiting for them at their return.

[Colt47]

What the main thread in general didn't go into is what the content was and how it differed from past expansions. Shadowbringers had content that had synergy and encouraged variety in what people were doing. A lot of people never did crafting, for example, so many people flocked to the firmament to engage in it. The Bazja relic chain, while not the best of the relic weapons, still encouraged doing things like old fates and other forgotten content instead of proliferating and putting pressure upon the roulette system. And finally, the content in the last expansion encouraged breaking the mold with gameplay and searching out interesting combinations, while also dealing with fantastical fights.

The reason that there is a content drought has nothing to do with the amount of content, which still is less in feeling even if someone wants to engage in an argument of quantity. The deep dungeon doesn't encourage different styles of play, and also doesn't revitalize because it is contained only at the top end. We've seen PoTD before and now they introduced a refresh of PoTD, but people tired of PoTD can't do it unless they are 80 already. The criterion dungeons are like cut down versions of Eureka and Bazja, or just kind of side stories that are quickly resolved, with little replayability even with multiple paths. And the Relic quest, much like core crafting and gathering, puts pressure on the roulette system which is the primary method of getting tomestones.

[DrWho2010]

people clamored for a DD because there wasn't one for the 5.x series. Now there is one for the 6.x series and people complain about it.
can't win.

[ServerCollaps]

do hunt trains for tomes, if you dont like roulettes

[Themarvin]

This is a bit of an issue and has been since the manderville stuff ended up being hooked up to it. I was trying to figure out why I was having so many issues with keeping up on savage + crafting / gathering, and realized that with the manderville stuff taking up the tomestones normally used for crafting materials it is way too easy to fall behind on just about everything.

I can only imagine what it is like for someone returning this patch and wants to do savage but also is an omni crafter and still on a mix of 590 and 560 crafting gear. While the end game 2000 cap tomestone is "easy" to get, it is also "very repetitive" to get. The content drought makes it a heavy burden to keep running all the roulettes over and over regardless of benefit.

Crafting doesn't really need to be easier but if we're going to start taxing the 2000 end game tomestone there better be a boost to spirit bonding per craft given the amount of time it takes to craft one item vs killing mobs of proper level. That or maybe make it so when the patch drops they sell the items needed 100% through scrips, and maybe even the crafted mats.

Like what exactly happened since SB to change the course and attitude on crafting? Wasn't Firmament meant to help eliminate the mountain that prevented people from doing crafting? The Island Sanctuary doesn't even give spirit bonding benefits for crafters and gatherers since the entire thing is a separate system. Just throwing crafting and gathering materia onto the rewards list doesn't make it a thing.

If you are into Savage, then you KNOW the DRILL, it has not changed since HW in how to get gear, if you take breaks with the view on doing Savage when you get back, you need to plan your stuff, cap the max iLevel before you take a break, if you break spands over lets say 8 months or something then you would probably be obsulete for that.

And then you just need to get into business and work it up, it is the same game for all and I don't think returners and new players should have an advantage over whom has been here forever, it is asking for TOO MUCH.

As for content, we are ahead of Shadow Bringers, let alone we got a new Deep Dungeon, as savage may not be all, then DD may not be for all as well if you want to goto the top floors, deal with and accept that.. besides of savage there is a bunch of EX. Trials and Unreal that can be done as well, if you lean towards the more heavy side of the game... and if you feel too good to do stuff, start doing Ultimates.

For each mentioned thing there is a casual/standard variant as well, and 100s of others things to do as well.

Current content does so you don't have to do it repetetative, it covers that, the hunt, roulettes, side content.

So stop inventing problems that we do not have!

[Colt47]

The drill did change for the better when 6.0 dropped. Then people apparently complained that crafting was too easy so now it is absolute crap again. Apparently, crafting can only be a monopoly for dedicated people who don't even do the content that requires half of the crap they make.

Lets say the idea that the FFXIV devs have is to make a living economy with crafting and gathering being a major part of the game. They decide that in order for this to exist, they need to have demand so they decide to make consumables required for completion of content, such as food and tinctures, and also decide to make the optimum gear for raiding crafted. To have this kind of content they have to make raiding challenging so the difficulty is tuned up, which increases the number of attempts needed to complete as well as coordination. So raiders naturally spend a lot of time, well, raiding.

So where do raiders get the gil from that powers this? They don't earn anything from failing to complete a savage run, so the only sources of income would have to come from other activities outside of the primary activity. They'd have to engage in things like map runs, roulettes, etc, to generate currency which can then be used to buy the things they need to do the content. Outside of this, extremes can drop a few rare items that can be sold to crafters and map runs can give raw gil.

The problem is that because raiders have to spend time raiding and rarely would have time to omni-craft, let alone spend time to craft due to how the system is setup, they don't have the ability to get materia as easily as dedicated crafters and gatherers. Gathering is time consuming due to node timings, while crafting is time consuming because of the steps and often prerequisite items necessary to craft, such as having to make craft food or gather scrips to then buy materials. So when pressure gets put onto the system such as a patch launch it gives crafters unimaginable power over the market. Gear like the new raid gear instantly is being sold at over a mil a piece, and unless someone has friends that gather and craft instead of doing savage or have a LOT more time than average, they are going to be spending a whole lot of gil trying to get geared day 1. Players who are new are likely not going to be able to do savage at all under this kind of a system without knowing the right people.

The common argument is that someone doesn't need crafted gear to do savage and that is true. If someone has full 630 gear they can probably start doing savage with just a few pieces from the new raid, but the community doesn't really support this assertion. If the optimal raid gear is crafted gear with pentamelds, people in the community will push others to have that gear. If the game was built so that raiding somehow was a resource generator even on failure this system would make some sense, but not as it stands because the person raiding is just burning everything with no real way to recover gil if they are going at it mid-core. The system basically depends on the raiders finishing up as fast as possible so that they can then farm maps and whatever else to recover resources.

Tomestone materials are one avenue that allow for recovery of resources through the market board, but with relic also using that resource in a way that doesn't convert to gil, it drains people doing the end game content and also reduces the quantity of tomestone materials on the AH, making them more expensive to purchase. The main gear that uses those are the crafted gear and while it wont hit crafters and gatherers hard, it does again double up and damage people who do not engage in those activities.

[Jojoya]

The common argument is that someone doesn't need crafted gear to do savage and that is true. If someone has full 630 gear they can probably start doing savage with just a few pieces from the new raid, but the community doesn't really support this assertion. If the optimal raid gear is crafted gear with pentamelds, people in the community will push others to have that gear. If the game was built so that raiding somehow was a resource generator even on failure this system would make some sense, but not as it stands because the person raiding is just burning everything with no real way to recover gil if they are going at it mid-core. The system basically depends on the raiders finishing up as fast as possible so that they can then farm maps and whatever else to recover resources.

Tomestone materials are one avenue that allow for recovery of resources through the market board, but with relic also using that resource in a way that doesn't convert to gil, it drains people doing the end game content and also reduces the quantity of tomestone materials on the AH, making them more expensive to purchase. The main gear that uses those are the crafted gear and while it wont hit crafters and gatherers hard, it does again double up and damage people who do not engage in those activities.

Players need to ignore what "the community" (which is generally just a very vocal minority of players) asset. If you ask around, it's not that difficult to find a group of like-minded players who have common sense. As I've stressed to some friends who have formed a first time Savage static, it's not the lack of BiS gear that causes wipes. Wipes happen because mistakes are made.

As for tomestones being needed for the relics as well, that's easy. Ignore the relics and get the crafting materials for your gear. There's no rush to get a relic weapon as they won't be BIS until the .55 patch and irrelevant to raiders that have usually cleared Savage by that point. No one needs to buy the tomestone materials off the marketboard. It only takes about 1400 to get what is needed for a full set of crafted gear and that's quick to farm, especially if you do hunts. Right now hunters are getting 320 per 20 minute train (if all 16 marks are up, which they usually are).

Things are not the panic mode you imply. The tomestone cap is fine.